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CZ PISTOL CLUBS => CZ Polymer Pistols, the new wave => Topic started by: dave33 on February 22, 2016, 12:06:33 PM

Title: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 22, 2016, 12:06:33 PM
Got a threaded barrel P09, a Springer Precision comp, moved my Burris FF3 from my .40 cal P09 to the new gun and "presto" poor mans open gun.

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/ADB318EB-1D45-4FD6-BD99-72013916980C.jpg~original)

Best part is how its shoots.  First time shooting it yesterday yielded excellent results, 10 shots just over an inch at 25yds from a rest.

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/5EE97101-9BED-4D5E-B922-3A67D319002A.jpg~original) 

Ive never owned, shot, or loaded for a compensated gun before, I just know lighter bullets and slower powders make more gas to work the comp so I tried six different kinds of bullets over the slowest powder I have on hand right now, Accurate #7.  Best group was with 124gr Precision Delta JHP's, with a close second being 100gr RMR RN heavy plated bullets.  All six loads worked pretty well, better than I can get out of my XDM 5.25 anyway.  These P09's are so dang accurate for an off the shelf service grade pistol.  I wonder how much better, if any, it will shoot after Ive spent some time wringing out the most I can get from my reloads.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on February 22, 2016, 01:10:23 PM
I'd love to know how that comp works with major power factor loads.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on February 22, 2016, 01:41:47 PM
Dave33--Great results!!  But I knew what to expect after a year of shooting bullseye matches with a P-09. 

Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: welfare_train on February 22, 2016, 05:47:57 PM
Does the comp increase the noise level coming back at you (the shooter)?
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 22, 2016, 05:59:26 PM
Does the comp increase the noise level coming back at you (the shooter)?

Im sure it does but I use double protection, plugs and muffs, and nothing is too bad with all that.  But Ive been around a few compensated guns that were incredibly loud.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: eyetat on February 22, 2016, 09:18:30 PM
Ok how did you get the comp on straight crush washer or timing washers ?.Poor mans open gun comp $100 w shipping of corse Cajun parts $218 plus shipping race hammer $88.00 +shipping slide cut $200. +ship red dot $400. Extra mags $200.gun 500 ish .$1500or so .STI 45 duty $1299 in 45 could not find a 40.looks close to a race gun  add a gas pedal a mag well almost good to go forgot about mag extension.Just sounds like a race gun to me.LOL
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: jameslovesjammie on February 23, 2016, 01:54:22 AM
I'd love to know how that comp works with major power factor loads.

+1

I also wish someone made a threaded .40 cal barrel for the P09.  And 170mm mag extensions.  At 140mm with CZCustom guts, you're at 24 9mm or 21 .40.  170mm should net 29 rounds, same as the 170mm Tactical Sport mags with CZCustom guts.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 23, 2016, 09:57:14 AM
Ok how did you get the comp on straight crush washer or timing washers ?.Poor mans open gun comp $100 w shipping of corse Cajun parts $218 plus shipping race hammer $88.00 +shipping slide cut $200. +ship red dot $400. Extra mags $200.gun 500 ish .$1500or so .STI 45 duty $1299 in 45 could not find a 40.looks close to a race gun  add a gas pedal a mag well almost good to go forgot about mag extension.Just sounds like a race gun to me.LOL

Not sure if I just got lucky or if the Springer comps just fit perfectly but mine lined up almost perfectly straight, just had to snug it up a little and loctite it.

As for costs, Im no where near your numbers.  Comp was $85, no Cajun parts nor race hammer in it, $45 for a dovetail mount also from Springer so saved on shipping, already had a Burris FF3 on my other .40 cal P09, so just moved it over, but it was only $211 shipped when I bought it.  Did buy 3 extra mags, about $130 total, maybe a few bucks more for shipping.  Oh yeah, the gun itself was $483 at a LGS, which I think isnt too bad.

Most real 2011 open type pistols start around $3k and go up from there, in many cases way up, this is a real bargain for something to play with.  Im not suggesting its anywhere near the level of a true race gun, but its going to be a ton of fun to play with and totally reliable, and with a little work up dead on accurate too.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 23, 2016, 10:01:35 AM
I'd love to know how that comp works with major power factor loads.

+1

I also wish someone made a threaded .40 cal barrel for the P09.  And 170mm mag extensions.  At 140mm with CZCustom guts, you're at 24 9mm or 21 .40.  170mm should net 29 rounds, same as the 170mm Tactical Sport mags with CZCustom guts.

I dont plan to shoot USPSA, at least not now, so Im not sure I will be shooting major loads but who knows what I will come up with while Im doing development.  Planned to shoot some tomorrow but forecast is for 100% chance of rain.  >:(  I will follow up with whatever I come up with as soon as I can.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: 85nick on February 23, 2016, 12:41:30 PM
very nice, i am thinking for following in your footsteps just with slight modifications and different optic. if you do more on load development please share.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: BrazeauRacing on February 23, 2016, 01:45:31 PM
Nice!  I took mine a little further and installed the Springer magwell and made my own kydex holster to fit the comp.  Just last night I finished modifying the factory ambidextrous safeties into extended safeties using a soldering iron and some sheet ABS plastic (and a LOT of time).  8) The P-09 is such a versatile gun!

The problem is... this is just a "fun" gun for me to toy around with, as I am really happy shooting in Production with my SP-01.  :P

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_11.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_holstered2.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_extsafety_01.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_extsafety_02.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_extsafety_03.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_extsafety_04.jpg)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 23, 2016, 02:13:10 PM
Thats a fine looking shooter Brazeau!  My next goal, after load development, is to come up with a good "race" holster.  Right now Im using the same safariland generic holster I was before, as it fits decently and its open at the bottom so the comp doesnt matter.  Ive spoken to a local holster maker that is willing to talk about customizing something for me.  If that doesnt pan out you may see another thread about a poor mans open gun holster project. ;D


 
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on February 23, 2016, 03:00:20 PM
I would like to hear more about those safeties.


Jamie
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: BrazeauRacing on February 23, 2016, 05:26:49 PM
Thats a fine looking shooter Brazeau!  My next goal, after load development, is to come up with a good "race" holster.  Right now Im using the same safariland generic holster I was before, as it fits decently and its open at the bottom so the comp doesnt matter.  Ive spoken to a local holster maker that is willing to talk about customizing something for me.  If that doesnt pan out you may see another thread about a poor mans open gun holster project. ;D

That's exactly what mine is... a poor man's race holster! :P I used a BOSS hanger mount as part of the molding process.

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_kydex_01.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_kydex_04.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_kydex_07.jpg)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: BrazeauRacing on February 23, 2016, 05:30:13 PM
I would like to hear more about those safeties.

Using a soldering iron, I just kept melting little dabs of ABS plastic onto the factory safety to build it up little by little (I squished the first layer of dabs into the factory polymer to get a good bond going), and then I spent time shaping it with the iron. Once I got the overall shape and size where I wanted it, I used some small needle files to finish shaping it and to cut the serration grooves into the top. Then I used various grits of sand paper to smooth it out. It took me about an hour and a half for each side.  :o
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on February 23, 2016, 06:46:24 PM
I have a plastic welder that has some ABS rods. That may be a good starting point. Thanks for the info.


Jamie
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: eyetat on February 23, 2016, 07:53:45 PM
I have all the pieces together and just have to start shooting the p07 in idpa and put a poor mans race gun to gather. And have fun.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on February 24, 2016, 09:02:06 AM
I'd love to know how that comp works with major power factor loads.

+1

I also wish someone made a threaded .40 cal barrel for the P09.  And 170mm mag extensions.  At 140mm with CZCustom guts, you're at 24 9mm or 21 .40.  170mm should net 29 rounds, same as the 170mm Tactical Sport mags with CZCustom guts.

I dont plan to shoot USPSA, at least not now, so Im not sure I will be shooting major loads but who knows what I will come up with while Im doing development.  Planned to shoot some tomorrow but forecast is for 100% chance of rain.  >:(  I will follow up with whatever I come up with as soon as I can.

I don't shoot uspsa either was just curious how the comp would handle major loads.

For it to make major its just weight x speed% 1000 = above 165

So a 124gr bullet has to be moving about 1350fps
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on February 24, 2016, 11:08:27 AM
One thing (and only one thing) bugs me about the P-09 and that is the shape of the grip.  The sides feel flat and thin to me, so I've fattened them up with JB-Weld on the first one and with Sugru on the second one.  This makes a big difference in how people with large hands and long fingers can become comfortable with the gun. 

I started out with just grip tape, then tennis racket tape, but those just made the blocky grip larger.  The JB-Weld or Sugru allows me to add material on the sides, to ovalize the shape, without adding any front and back. 

You guys are on the right track.  Very interesting modifications to a great handgun.

Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 24, 2016, 12:45:20 PM
One thing (and only one thing) bugs me about the P-09 and that is the shape of the grip.  The sides feel flat and thin to me, so I've fattened them up with JB-Weld on the first one and with Sugru on the second one.  This makes a big difference in how people with large hands and long fingers can become comfortable with the gun. 

I started out with just grip tape, then tennis racket tape, but those just made the blocky grip larger.  The JB-Weld or Sugru allows me to add material on the sides, to ovalize the shape, without adding any front and back. 

You guys are on the right track.  Very interesting modifications to a great handgun.

Joe

Joe, I'm right there with you regarding the grip, it would be better for me with if it was a bit fatter. I've got a couple packs of the sugru waiting for me to finish up comp testing before I apply it.  To me about the best feeling grip out there is a double stack 1911/2011, just the perfect fit for my hands. I'm hoping I can get that same feeling with the sugru.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on February 24, 2016, 01:09:28 PM
I used 4 packs on my open sight gun last night, trying to build up the grip thickness and "ovalize" the feel a little. 

I gotta try a double stack 1911 some time.  I've never held one.  Single stack is too narrow for me without fat aftermarket grips. 

Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: M1A4ME on February 24, 2016, 05:30:57 PM
Double stack 1911s.

My P14 feels different in my hands.  I notice its not my Colt, but I don't have a "rejection reaction".  I just notice it and it feels odd/different.

Now, about 2 or 3 years ago I ran across a set of finger groove rubber grips for my P14.  They were in a $5 bargain box at a local gun store so I bought them and put them on the P14.  They are the only set of finger groove grips (I'm talking going back over 30 years on 1911s, and S&W revolvers and more recently a 3rd Gen. Glock) that actually feel good in my hands.

Now, the question.  If you had a set of grips like that (wrap around, finger groove, sort of a soft rubber feel to them) could you "glue" them to a P09 frame?  Use something inside the grips to fill in the gap, push them onto the P09 from the front so as to squeeze the excess out around the grips/P09 frame (might need to do is slow enough to scrape some of the excess off before it gets somewhere you don't want it) and then let it set up. 

In effect, gluing a set of aftermarket grips over the frame.  Is that legal for what you guys are trying to do?  Has anyone tried to do it?

Oh, I'm fine with a P09.  Anything that shoots like it does is A-Okay with me.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: romukom on February 24, 2016, 07:30:26 PM
I don't own an 1911 but I have a hogue grip as you describe in my 22/45.  IMO I would too thick.  I don't know if you have seen my post about modifying the P09 grip.  That way you will have a true custom grip that fit your hand :)
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=75460.0
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 25, 2016, 11:34:29 AM
I don't own an 1911 but I have a hogue grip as you describe in my 22/45.  IMO I would too thick.  I don't know if you have seen my post about modifying the P09 grip.  That way you will have a true custom grip that fit your hand :)
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=75460.0

Your sugru thread is what inspired me to get some to try out.  Had my wife pick me up a couple packs from the target store.  I sent her a link to what I wanted but didnt tell her what it was or why I wanted it.  She got home, brought it up to my reloading room with a puzzled look on her face and then I explained what I was going to do with it.  She just rolled her eyes and laughed.  Poor thing is such a good sport dealing with all my crazy gun stuff.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: romukom on February 25, 2016, 12:31:41 PM
She is a keeper ! :)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jonesn on February 26, 2016, 06:24:57 PM
OK thats sharp as a bleep SAMURAU!!! I want to do the poor man Open P09 to my P09!
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Winkel on February 26, 2016, 08:46:35 PM
I would like to hear more about those safeties.

Using a soldering iron, I just kept melting little dabs of ABS plastic onto the factory safety to build it up little by little (I squished the first layer of dabs into the factory polymer to get a good bond going), and then I spent time shaping it with the iron. Once I got the overall shape and size where I wanted it, I used some small needle files to finish shaping it and to cut the serration grooves into the top. Then I used various grits of sand paper to smooth it out. It took me about an hour and a half for each side.  :o
Very well done sir!
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Styer on February 28, 2016, 10:38:23 AM
Ive got everything but the comp and the sight base to put one of these together. Though I was thinking about selling my threaded P09 barrel since I moved my suppressor to an AR9 build

Sent from my Nexus 10 using Tapatalk

Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on February 28, 2016, 04:04:44 PM
I got my poor man's bullseye P09 out today and shot it for the first time in months.  Still as good as it was during the 2014 bullseye match season, which was excellent.  Here is a 25 yard group from a two handed grip on a rest.  Dang gun is phenomenal, mechanically.  I also shot my Sugru open sighted gun today, it's pretty good too. 

(https://joelynch.smugmug.com/Firearms/Pistol-Range-2-28-16/i-skCKk8K/0/M/P2280270-M.jpg)

I can live with this.  I shot several groups under 1.5", best was 7/8"

(https://joelynch.smugmug.com/Firearms/Pistol-Range-2-28-16/i-wwwcXgQ/0/M/P2280273-M.jpg).

Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on February 29, 2016, 11:48:41 AM
Ran through some rounds yesterday in my search for the best load for my needs.  This thing just keeps amazing me.  Accuracy is excellent, didnt improve upon the last loads but didnt get worse either, very consistent.  Shot my first major PF loads, though not many and on the lower side of major.  Not too bad or harsh, muzzle flip not too bad, more of a little harder hit in the hand.  Not sure where I will end up but if I had to guess at this point I will probably go with the lighter weight bullets as they have almost no recoil or dot movement at all.  If they wont hold the accuracy at 50yds will probably go with something in the 145 power factor range with a 124gr Precision Delta JHP, those have always been very accurate for me.  Still have some testing to do, this sure is fun. 8)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on February 29, 2016, 12:07:47 PM
Dave,
I'm looking forward to your results with the major power factor loads.  All I've shot is minor 115 gr in mine...but they are good out to 200 yards.   :) :)
Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on February 29, 2016, 02:16:49 PM
Thanks for the update Dave33 looking forward to your load developments.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: jameslovesjammie on February 29, 2016, 09:51:38 PM
Shot my first major PF loads, though not many and on the lower side of major. 

Care to share bullet weight and velocity?  I'm not looking for data, just curious what you were running.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 01, 2016, 12:46:26 AM
No problem sharing data.  The two loads that saw low major velocities were 7.3gr hs-6 under a 124gr Precision Delta JHP, and 6.1gr Autocomp under the same bullet. They both averaged about 1320FPS but the higher velocities in those ranges were right at 1335 FPS, so technically a few were major loads.

A few other interesting loads were with light weight bullets. I found 7.2gr of Autocomp will push a 90gr JHP an average of 1568 FPS, 8.84gr Accurate #7 will push that same little bullet 1578 FPS, and they both will hold about a 2" group at 25 yds if I do my part. 9.1 gr Accurate #7 under a 100gr heavy plated RN runs an average 1378 FPS and is very accurate as well. All of these light bullet loads are just silly soft shooting. Still have lots of other loads to try out.

Disclaimer: these are my results in my gun after careful work up, are probably not found in any reloading books, could be potentially dangerous, please be careful. It sure is fun though.

Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on March 01, 2016, 07:42:40 AM
The more powder you have the more you can work the comp and evenly you'll find a sweet spot were that thing shoots really flat. Since you have a nice variety of bullets and powder you don't even need to make major to get the same comp effects, just use a lighter bullet and a slower burning powder.

I'm actually in the same stage as you testing a comp right now, different comp and different gun(still a CZ tho) but i've been running some test loads through quickload and the powders i've been testing so far are power pistol and autocomp but I also worked up some loads with AA#7 (incase I find some) and lighter bullets.

I'm not sure you can even fit enough aa#7 in a case to cause issues depending on how fine of a powder it is but with a 100gr bullet I believe you can work yup to about 11gr's depending on OAL and chronograph results if you need more gas to work the comp more, another thing if you have magnum primers it wouldn't be a bad idea to switch to those for a better burn.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 01, 2016, 10:55:35 AM
The more powder you have the more you can work the comp and evenly you'll find a sweet spot were that thing shoots really flat. Since you have a nice variety of bullets and powder you don't even need to make major to get the same comp effects, just use a lighter bullet and a slower burning powder.

I'm actually in the same stage as you testing a comp right now, different comp and different gun(still a CZ tho) but i've been running some test loads through quickload and the powders i've been testing so far are power pistol and autocomp but I also worked up some loads with AA#7 (incase I find some) and lighter bullets.

I'm not sure you can even fit enough aa#7 in a case to cause issues depending on how fine of a powder it is but with a 100gr bullet I believe you can work yup to about 11gr's depending on OAL and chronograph results if you need more gas to work the comp more, another thing if you have magnum primers it wouldn't be a bad idea to switch to those for a better burn.

One thing about Accurate #7, until you get pretty high in the load range it leaves a lot of unburned powder granules from breech to muzzle.  Probably right about not being enough room in the case to get into trouble, Ive heard of guys cramming a bullet on a full case of powder and have the round "grow" to be too long to fit the barrel.  And thats another thing Im sure you are aware of, CZ's have such short throats there are limits to what can be "safely" loaded unless the throat is reamed, which I dont plan to do.

If you can find some, HS-6 is a very popular major load powder.  It shows good promise in my limited use so far. 

What gun and comp are you loading for?  If you say a Czech Mate that will make me jealous and I will have to hate you. :P :P :P
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on March 01, 2016, 11:06:10 AM
The more powder you have the more you can work the comp and evenly you'll find a sweet spot were that thing shoots really flat. Since you have a nice variety of bullets and powder you don't even need to make major to get the same comp effects, just use a lighter bullet and a slower burning powder.

I'm actually in the same stage as you testing a comp right now, different comp and different gun(still a CZ tho) but i've been running some test loads through quickload and the powders i've been testing so far are power pistol and autocomp but I also worked up some loads with AA#7 (incase I find some) and lighter bullets.

I'm not sure you can even fit enough aa#7 in a case to cause issues depending on how fine of a powder it is but with a 100gr bullet I believe you can work yup to about 11gr's depending on OAL and chronograph results if you need more gas to work the comp more, another thing if you have magnum primers it wouldn't be a bad idea to switch to those for a better burn.

One thing about Accurate #7, until you get pretty high in the load range it leaves a lot of unburned powder granules from breech to muzzle.  Probably right about not being enough room in the case to get into trouble, Ive heard of guys cramming a bullet on a full case of powder and have the round "grow" to be too long to fit the barrel.  And thats another thing Im sure you are aware of, CZ's have such short throats there are limits to what can be "safely" loaded unless the throat is reamed, which I dont plan to do.

If you can find some, HS-6 is a very popular major load powder.  It shows good promise in my limited use so far. 

What gun and comp are you loading for?  If you say a Czech Mate that will make me jealous and I will have to hate you. :P :P :P

That's a secret :)

Not really its a sp-01 shadow with a glock maverick comp that I modified to work.

Yes I have a mason throat reamer I use on some of my CZ barrels but this extended barrel in the sp-01 seems longer than normal to start with so I have not reamed it yet.

Ya I have read a lot of good things about hs-6 also on my list of powders I need.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 01, 2016, 12:07:16 PM
The more powder you have the more you can work the comp and evenly you'll find a sweet spot were that thing shoots really flat. Since you have a nice variety of bullets and powder you don't even need to make major to get the same comp effects, just use a lighter bullet and a slower burning powder.

I'm actually in the same stage as you testing a comp right now, different comp and different gun(still a CZ tho) but i've been running some test loads through quickload and the powders i've been testing so far are power pistol and autocomp but I also worked up some loads with AA#7 (incase I find some) and lighter bullets.

I'm not sure you can even fit enough aa#7 in a case to cause issues depending on how fine of a powder it is but with a 100gr bullet I believe you can work yup to about 11gr's depending on OAL and chronograph results if you need more gas to work the comp more, another thing if you have magnum primers it wouldn't be a bad idea to switch to those for a better burn.

One thing about Accurate #7, until you get pretty high in the load range it leaves a lot of unburned powder granules from breech to muzzle.  Probably right about not being enough room in the case to get into trouble, Ive heard of guys cramming a bullet on a full case of powder and have the round "grow" to be too long to fit the barrel.  And thats another thing Im sure you are aware of, CZ's have such short throats there are limits to what can be "safely" loaded unless the throat is reamed, which I dont plan to do.

If you can find some, HS-6 is a very popular major load powder.  It shows good promise in my limited use so far. 

What gun and comp are you loading for?  If you say a Czech Mate that will make me jealous and I will have to hate you. :P :P :P

That's a secret :)

Not really its a sp-01 shadow with a glock maverick comp that I modified to work.

Yes I have a mason throat reamer I use on some of my CZ barrels but this extended barrel in the sp-01 seems longer than normal to start with so I have not reamed it yet.

Ya I have read a lot of good things about hs-6 also on my list of powders I need.

Sounds cool, keep us updated on your progress.  Im also going to try a totally different approach for experimentation sake and load some coated lead with SR7625 to what will probably be upper 130's to lower 140's PF to see what I get.  SR7625 has been one of the best 9mm powders I have ever loaded with, especially with lead bullets, and I think it is slow enough to generate some gas too, and since I have about 8lbs of it I would be in good shape for a bit.  I've heard of people pushing this powder to major and may work in that direction too but would probably run out of room in the CZ chamber for that unless I ream it.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: eyetat on March 01, 2016, 05:37:47 PM
HP-38 4.2 grains rock mountain HMRN nice shooter ,to cold out yet to crno for PF.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Bossgobbler on March 02, 2016, 09:38:14 PM
Auto-Comp is one of the better powders for loading major PF.  N350 also works well but it will be a compressed load.  Your small comp will not use all of the gas that a major load will produce.  with heavy use of major PF ammo, be on the lookout for your P09 taking a beating.     in my Czechmate I use Auto-Comp 7.0gn 124 PD jhp  1.155 OAL  1363 fps  169 PF  also  N350 7.0gn  124 PD jhp  1.160 OAL  1355 fps 168 PF .

I use Blue Bullets also with good results.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on March 04, 2016, 06:11:38 PM
Did a little major testing today, I couldnt tell a big difference in how much they worked the comp as I think I was over gassing the comp compared to my normal range ammo and I was paying more attention to the chrono than the recoil.

Lead cast 130gr bullets
6.6gr of power pistol avg 1375
6.9gr of autocomp avg 1406

Both of these look loads were to hot tho you couldn't tell it shooting the gun as they were both soft but 1275 makes major with this bullet.

105gr cast lead bullet
7.5gr of power pistol avg 1544fps
8gr of autocomp avg 1686fps.

Over all I was impressed with how soft the gun shot for as hot as the ammo was but I think the comp would probably do better from less gas. My comp has 3 vertical ports and 4 small horizontal port.

Something else that should be mentioned is to use new or once fired brass. I just grabbed some brass I had and loaded up these rounds. I had head case separation on two cases, doesn't had to hurt the gun at all but not worth risking.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: jameslovesjammie on March 04, 2016, 08:35:35 PM
Did a little major testing today, I couldnt tell a big difference in how much they worked the comp as I think I was over gassing the comp compared to my normal range ammo and I was paying more attention to the chrono than the recoil.

One technique I have seen to test if you have too much gas was described by the Powerfactor Show.

https://youtu.be/zVDUhUzTUj8?t=11m48s


More on the technique here:

https://youtu.be/7ht6M1cpEPw?t=24m48s

Too much gas will tear the cardboard, just enough will make a nice hole.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Bossgobbler on March 04, 2016, 11:05:24 PM
Lead bullets will fill your comp, it is a real pain to get out.   Guns with comps work best with light bullets.  over 125gn you are going in to the danger zone! Not a good idea to push heavy bullets to major!    With 124-125gn try not to go over 1400fps  with 115gn try not to go over 1500fps with 105gn ????  You were lucky you only had case  separation, I hate to think what the PSI of your 130gn loads were, most likely close to Kaboom :-[ 
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: 1SOW on March 05, 2016, 12:10:58 AM
I have a shooter-friend (Cocobolo) who likes Silhouette for gas under 124 gr fully jacketted bullets in 9mm major.
He posts on the Enos forum.


 
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on March 05, 2016, 07:29:49 AM
Lead bullets will fill your comp, it is a real pain to get out.   Guns with comps work best with light bullets.  over 125gn you are going in to the danger zone! Not a good idea to push heavy bullets to major!    With 124-125gn try not to go over 1400fps  with 115gn try not to go over 1500fps with 105gn ????  You were lucky you only had case  separation, I hate to think what the PSI of your 130gn loads were, most likely close to Kaboom :-[ 

The bullets I use start out as a 124gr lead bullet that I cast and than powder coat so it's kind of like shooting a bullet with a plastic jacket when calculating the load I forgot the extra weight from the coating. Ya pressure was alot higher than what I was shooting for if I had to guess using quickload it was over 45k psi for the 130gr bullets which it seems like with my other cz's it's always came up a little long on the FPS but this time it was about 50fps short. The 105gr bullets just making major I think are only running about +p level but I'm not sure at close to 1700fps.

I've got a lot of playing around to do before I worry to much about comparing the gas comp effect out of this thing, Firstly I need to work a couple loads that safely just make major and run a few boxs than I can test everything else.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 05, 2016, 10:09:50 AM
Dang Thompson those loads sound a bit "spicy" to me, did you do any kind of accuracy testing with them.  I would be curious how they do in that regard.  I have loaded up some coated lead for testing hopefully tomorrow but no where near what you are doing unless I made a mistake reloading. ;D

In other developments, project ghetto grip enhancer, aka "shugru treatment" is underway with pretty good results I think, complete with pre-hardening stipple treatment with a phillips head screwdriver.  Just applied it last night so haven't had a chance to put a real squeeze on it but it feels pretty good.  Just did one side for now, will probably add a thinner layer on the other side later if this side holds up.

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/2B9D7B9F-5AB6-4D93-9BE0-9941446562F2.jpg~original) 

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/D5982788-D18F-4198-8BFB-D6638A7CA526.jpg~original)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on March 05, 2016, 06:25:36 PM
The Sugru treatment looks good.  I may add some to my JB-Weld job this weekend.  I would have add some to the top of your grip panel to keep my trigger finger knuckle from riding that ridge you created, I think.  Phillips head screwdriver looks like a good Sugru stipple tool.

Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: eyetat on March 05, 2016, 06:43:07 PM
Can't. Find any thing about sugru on Google i could use to thicken up the sides as it is almost hard to pull the trigger all the way back.big hands are to blame.
FOUND IT how much did you use for the one side I should say how maney packs.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 05, 2016, 11:45:08 PM
Can't. Find any thing about sugru on Google i could use to thicken up the sides as it is almost hard to pull the trigger all the way back.big hands are to blame.
FOUND IT how much did you use for the one side I should say how maney packs.

The one side is 3 individual packets. Three packets come in one package.

It has hardened up nicely and feels good in the hand. Plan to shoot a little tomorrow so will see how it does. I'm thinking I need to extend the one side back a little further and then run a thinner and smaller section on the rearward half of the other side. But as of now if I don't do anything else it is definitely better.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: eyetat on March 06, 2016, 08:43:03 AM
Dave33 thanks for the up date I have a three pack on its way.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: BABore on March 09, 2016, 12:19:27 PM
Is that a Burris mount adapter attaching the FF3 to the gun. I looked on the Burris site and they didn't have anything listed for CZ. Happen to know which model it is?

Thanks
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on March 09, 2016, 01:30:31 PM
Is that a Burris mount adapter attaching the FF3 to the gun. I looked on the Burris site and they didn't have anything listed for CZ. Happen to know which model it is?

Thanks

In my case, it is a Springer Precision mount.  Works great on a 97 and a standard 75 and the P-09/P-07. 
Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 09, 2016, 11:15:32 PM
Is that a Burris mount adapter attaching the FF3 to the gun. I looked on the Burris site and they didn't have anything listed for CZ. Happen to know which model it is?

Thanks

In my case, it is a Springer Precision mount.  Works great on a 97 and a standard 75 and the P-09/P-07. 
Joe

I'm using the same Springer Precision mount. The comp is from Springer Precision also.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: milq on March 13, 2016, 01:50:18 AM

Can't. Find any thing about sugru on Google i could use to thicken up the sides as it is almost hard to pull the trigger all the way back.big hands are to blame.
FOUND IT how much did you use for the one side I should say how maney packs.

The one side is 3 individual packets. Three packets come in one package.

It has hardened up nicely and feels good in the hand. Plan to shoot a little tomorrow so will see how it does. I'm thinking I need to extend the one side back a little further and then run a thinner and smaller section on the rearward half of the other side. But as of now if I don't do anything else it is definitely better.
I stumbled onto something else you might use to provide a palm swell. TractionGrips has a limited run of pigskin grip material that's roughly 3 times as thick as their normal rubber stuff. Might be worth a shot to get some and cut-n-stack to see if you can make a swell. They also have some other leathers, but the pigskin has a good feel.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: madhatter1013 on March 14, 2016, 02:18:17 AM
Thats a fine looking shooter Brazeau!  My next goal, after load development, is to come up with a good "race" holster.  Right now Im using the same safariland generic holster I was before, as it fits decently and its open at the bottom so the comp doesnt matter.  Ive spoken to a local holster maker that is willing to talk about customizing something for me.  If that doesnt pan out you may see another thread about a poor mans open gun holster project. ;D

That's exactly what mine is... a poor man's race holster! :P I used a BOSS hanger mount as part of the molding process.

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_kydex_01.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_kydex_04.jpg)

(http://www.brazeauracing.com/firearms/czp09_kydex_07.jpg)

That holster is pretty awesome looking. Great work !. This thread is killing my wallet. Ordered the RDS mount and the Comp the other week. Been busy with work and haven't had the chance to install the mount. The comp didn't index perfectly when I put it on my barrel. The guys at Springer Precision told me to loc-tite it into position. Though I feel that might cause some issues when it's time to clean.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: armoredman on March 16, 2016, 06:11:16 PM
Gents, I HAVE to step in here and advise ALL readers to NOT duplicate the loads discussed here, data is for academic purposes only - Western Powders recommends a MAX load of 8.0 grains of AA#7 for a 95 grain bullet, and the highest recommended load for any plated bullet for the same powder is 8.2 for a 115 grain Berrys plated bullet.
Quote
I'm not sure you can even fit enough aa#7 in a case to cause issues depending on how fine of a powder it is but with a 100gr bullet I believe you can work yup to about 11gr's
This is known as pushing the envelope a WEE bit far - highest load recommended by Western for AA#7 for ANYTHING is that plated 8.2grain load.
Incidentally, the cast/powdercoated bullet does cut way down on leading, something I have discovered over the short years. The Lee 124gr cast bullet works quite well for me, but I never load it over 6.8 grains AA#7 for a max velocity of 1100 FPS, but I'm not trying to make a max power factor load. That's what 9x21 is for. ;)
Back to the guns/set ups - SWEET! Those look great and I can't wait to hear how well they work for you in actual competition!
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on March 21, 2016, 03:53:04 PM
Looks like project poor mans open P09 is coming to its end and Im very satisfied with the results.  I have added some more Sugru to the palm swell areas and have just about gotten the exact grip I was hoping for.  For anyone wondering apparently sugru will stick to itself as well as it will stick to anything else.  Here is where I have filled in some on the original sugru treatment:

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/97C2D3B6-D567-48A1-BAAE-D2675BBF69C3.jpg~original)

And here is the other side where I beefed up my weak hand palm swell a little:

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/B3F54657-9BB4-41A9-BCBE-89D4259C6CDD.jpg~original)

I may go back and sand down that side just a little but plan on shooting it a fair amount first.  I purposely put plenty on that side so I could customize the fit if needed.  I will be curious how grippy this stuff is in the summer with sweaty hands, might eventually need to glue some gritty stuff to it.

For those with keen eyes you may have noticed the CGW race hammer I have installed, that along with the short reset kit.  The sloppy, mushy single action break has been replaced with a pretty nice crisp one, however I dont notice the reset being much shorter.  No biggie as the break was what I was wanting improvement on anyway.

As for loads I have settled on going with two different ones for now depending on the game Im shooting.  For NRA Action Pistol I will be going with 5.45gr of Autocomp under a 124 Precision Delta JHP.  Averages right at 150 PF, out of the P09 is pretty soft, and pushes enough gas through the comp to keep muzzle flip pretty tame.  It groups about an inch at 25yds and is pretty good at 50yds too though Im going to tinker around with it some to try and tighten that up a little:

(http://i493.photobucket.com/albums/rr292/dave33-33/FCA4A694-5EFC-4D79-A5AE-92017DC578BA_1.jpg~original)

For steel challenge Im going to most likely stick with the 9gr AA#7 under a 100gr RMR RN or a 100gr Xtreme FP.  This load holds just over an inch at 25yds, but is not quite as good at 50yds, but with steel challenge absolute accuracy isnt all that important.  I really enjoy messing around with different loads, powders, and projectiles so while Im going with these loads for now Im not going to stop working on stuff.

The only area that I need to work on is a better race type holster.  Im able to use a generic safariland holster for now but its not ideal.  There is a local guy that can possibly make something if I can ever get our schedules to sync.  Everything else Ive looked at is more form fitting and with the taper of the P09 slide wont accommodate the comp.  If anyone has any ideas for now Im all ears.

 

 
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 06, 2017, 05:07:22 PM
Now I just need to create a better safety and add a Major PF Comp(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171206/fb7400552c2f845ea742dc05efb7cb02.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 06, 2017, 06:49:54 PM
Now I just need to create a better safety and add a Major PF Comp(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171206/fb7400552c2f845ea742dc05efb7cb02.jpg)

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How is the mount working with the FF3?  Does it hold zero well?  Also thanks for dredging up this old thread, much has changed in how I'm shooting my P-09 as I now shoot it exclusively in open USPSA and with major 9 loads.  I should probably start a new thread with a long term review, have over a year of major 9 experience now.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 07, 2017, 07:04:46 AM
Now I just need to create a better safety and add a Major PF Comp(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171206/fb7400552c2f845ea742dc05efb7cb02.jpg)

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How is the mount working with the FF3?  Does it hold zero well?  Also thanks for dredging up this old thread, much has changed in how I'm shooting my P-09 as I now shoot it exclusively in open USPSA and with major 9 loads.  I should probably start a new thread with a long term review, have over a year of major 9 experience now.
The mount is working great so far, it raises the red dot .490" above where it was milled into the slide. The FF3 has been awesome, hasn't missed a beat in 3 years. Please do post an update on your experience shooting 9 Major in the P-09. What comp are you running and which load have you found works best.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 07, 2017, 07:57:05 AM
This is the holster that Neumount makes. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171207/4cbd8b4320f2c79a18797b807aeb8e56.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 07, 2017, 04:50:15 PM
This is the holster that Neumount makes. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171207/4cbd8b4320f2c79a18797b807aeb8e56.jpg)

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Good looking rig.  Does he make any kind of totally open race type holster that would fit a P-09?  I use a Comp-tac P-07 slide holster, fits like a glove and has an open bottom the comp sticks out of but its a bit of a longer draw, gotta shave time any where possible ya know.  ;D

I really like VV 3N38 powder with 124 xtreme RN heavy plate bullets.  Have shot this several months at around 170-172 PF and it has a good feel with excellent accuracy.  That being said I came across 8lbs of AA#7 at a great price and will be moving to it for a while.  Still using the Springer Precision comp, its not ideal but actually works pretty well.  If I have time tomorrow I will do a complete year in review rundown.  Probably start a new thread so it doesn't bog this one down too bad, as I have a lot of info I can share.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 07, 2017, 05:03:01 PM
I am told his mount works with the Guga Ribas Race holster and the CR speed with a slight bit of fitting.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 07, 2017, 05:05:05 PM
Dave 33 keep this post going. Don't start a new one.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: 30-30 on December 07, 2017, 07:05:29 PM
that's a nice group, nice pics--I like the compensator too.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 09, 2017, 11:03:09 AM
Not quite two years ago I decided to turn my P-09 into an open style competition pistol, complete with a red dot sight and compensator.  Had in mind shooting NRA Action Pistol matches and a little steel challenge also.  Decided to try USPSA, liked it better, and spent the last year shooting major 9 instead of the other matches I had planned.  Have had pretty good results and a bunch of fun with this non traditional race gun and learned a lot about its limitations too.

The gun - Started out with a black, threaded barrel P-09, and to it added/modified the following:

*Replaced stock hammer with Cajun race hammer.  Excellent product that gives the Omega trigger system a much, much cleaner, crisper break, highly recommended by me.

*Internally, installed CGW short reset kit, extended FP, and a 13lb hammer spring.  Didn't polish anything, did bend down the trigger bar spring a little and just shot the snot out of it.  Don't have a pull gage but I would put the trigger pull somewhere around 6-7lbs DA, and 2.5-3lbs SA, again with a very nice break.

*Added a Springer Precision comp.  Works well, would probably benefit from another large up port for major 9, but I doubt it was designed for full major 9 loads anyway.  It has stayed in place perfectly using the supplied Loctite, I did tap the bottom of it for a set screw for my own piece of mind, but probably not needed.

*Replaced the rear sight with a Springer Precision dovetail mount for a Burris FF3 red dot.  This is an excellent mount, in over two years of shooting it has not loosened up, shifted, or given me any kind of grief.  I actually bought another for my .40 cal P09 and move my FF3 between the two, they are both rock solid.

*Installed a Burris FF3 red dot.  All I can say is it works.  In over two years this sight has not lost zero, or failed in any way, including about a year of shooting major 9 loads with it.  I'm a little surprised, cause I have beat this gun and optic up and it still just keeps working.  Ive had to replace the battery a few times, but otherwise, no complaints.

*Beefed up the grip with Sugru moldable glue.  This stuff hasn't peeled, chipped, or otherwise budged since I put it on.  I do wish it had a little more of a rough texture for hot sweaty days, but the way I have it molded for my hand, it really does a very good job.

*Replaced stock recoil assembly with Cajun stainless guide rod, and a 12lb recoil spring.  I bought the tuner pack of recoil springs and like the 12lb the best, with the 13 and 11 close seconds. 

Some observations:

*Don't know my round count but its got to be over 10,000, probably way over, and that includes a year of major 9 rounds through it.  Only failure has been one single trigger return spring.  Otherwise, not a single problem, broken part, or even misfeed for that matter.  I rarely clean it, just make sure the bore looks good and add some lube to the rails while its apart.

*It is still crazy accurate.  I haven't done benched groups for accuracy in a long time, but still shoot from a rest when doing ammo testing, and unless the load is total crap, sub 2" 25yd groups without trying hard are pretty much a given.

*As a USPSA open major gun it actually works pretty good, considering its limitations.  The Springer comp does a pretty good job for what it is, but a more purpose built comp would be better.  I settled on 124gr Xtreme RN heavy plate bullets over VV3N38 powder at 172 PF, not my first choice in bullet but they are very accurate and can be loaded much longer for the short CZ throat.  The 19 round factory mags have held up to being dropped, kicked, stepped on, and generally neglected with no ill effects.  Ive thought about adding the +2 extensions but just cant justify the expense as there have only been a couple of stages in the last year that would of made a difference having the extra 2 rounds in a mag.  Slide ride vs frame mount for the optic hasn't been a problem, but then again Ive never used a frame mount optic so I may be missing out and not know. 
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 01:31:04 PM
Thanks for the reply Dave 33. So here is where I am at so far.

I was shooting Single Stack for a couple years, and got tired of the low turnout at my local matches in SS. Some months there were only 2 of us.

At that point in 2014 ish. I was an FFL and a good friend came in to order a P-07 for his wife and a P-09 for himself. He also wanted me to drop in some of the Cajun Goodies. I have always been a fan of the 75's so I was, interested to check out the P-Series guns.

Well needless to say I was very pleased with the factory guns that arrived at my shop. I installed the CGW parts and both of these guns felt much improved in the shop. Took them both to the range to test fire, before delivering them to my buddy.

I was completely blown away by how they shot. Upon returning from the range, I ordered a P-09 for my self, 2 extra mags from CZ-USA, all the Cajun Goodies, and a set of fiber optic sights from Dawson Precision.

Shot the gun in USPSA Production Division for about a year, had a great time. I am a lefty, so the Slide release, and Mag release work very well for me and the ergonomics of the gun are awesome, and of course the accuracy is top notch.

When Carry Optics became a thing, I decided to give it a try, as I was having a much harder time keeping a good clear front sight focus with my worsening vision. I have tried a couple different prescriptions, with little success. The dot was a game changer. I ordered a FF3 in 8 MOA and a Springer Dovetail mount. Ran that in Competition for a couple months with zero complaints. The first match I shot with it was in the middle of Winter up here in New England. I mounted the Burris, went to my indoor range, sighted it in, shot about another 50 rounds and had to head off for an appointment.

Next Day I shot my first match in Carry Optics and I knew it was the division for me. Between Jan of 16' and Nov of 17'. I have shot 35 USPSA matches in CO, Including two Area 7 Championships, 2 Mid Atlantic Sectionals, and the 2017 Optics Nationals, gun has run flawlessly, not a single parts failure.

Now for mods, I started out with some coarse stippling, that worked well enough, but once I tried the Silicon Carbide over epoxy I decided that was measurably better, I have the CGW race hammer, short reset, extended firing pin, reduced power Trigger Return spring, solid guide rod, and various springs, I did switch to the over sized roller to solve the timing issue, bought two +5, and three +0 aluminum basepads from Springer, with the Grams TS follower and springs I can get 24 in the mags easily.  I also did a light polish job on a few of the internals after reading a few of the posts on this forum. I also just added the ESP Magwell from Springer Precision, which is a very nice addition.

After the first couple months I decided to send my pistol to Primary Machine to have them mill the slide for direct mount of the FF3, they also Cerakoted the slide Crimson Red for me. As many of you Know Primary Machine's work is top notch and their customer service is great.

Up till this point I had been shooting 165 gr Xtreme bullets in 9mm over 2.8 of Titegroup, at 1.150" OAL. Making 131.5 PF. Super Load.

I have been wanting to try my hand at Open division for a long time and would love to be rocking a CZECHMATE, however my funds just can't support it. So I decided to convert my P-09 to Open in such a way that I would be able to reverse the mods and still shoot CO if I wanted to. 

Enter the Neumount, I happened to start talking to Tom Neufeld on Facebook one night about 9mm loads, and he asked me if I had seen his mount. Well long story short, we started talking regularly and he sent me a couple mounts to try out, along with one of his Kydex holsters. The mount is also compatible with the Guga Ribas and the CR speed, race type holsters, which is great because I bought the Guga Ribas Holster about a year ago, ran it in one match, put away it in a safe place and haven't been able to find it since.

The Neumount mounts to any gun with a picatinny light rail (over 100+ of guns have been verified) and it is drilled and tapped for more than 35 models of Red Dots, or with an adapter anything that can mount on a Picatinny rail. He invented it to do load development and group testing on his iron sights guns without having to make permenant modifications to the pistol. It also just so happens to be the Ideal way to frame mount an optic on a polymer gun. I know that there are mounts for the XD, M&P, and Glock, but nothing that was Ideal for the P-09/07. The difference in base height from the milled P-09 to the Neumount is .490", meaning the Frame mounted Dot is less than 1/2" higher than it slide mounted. For me, the learning curve was almost immediate.

Now to solve the SAO functionality, I love that the gun comes with the Safety levers, I have 2 sets, one from my P-09 and one from my P-07, and they are cheap enough for me to experiment with. I am a lefty so I only really care about the right side. I have some 1x1x1/8" aluminum angle to play with, I am probably going to sand/grind flat the right side lever and epoxy a piece of aluminum angle to it that will allow me to thumb off the safety dropping the lever down a bit lower on the grip and extending it outwards. I don't have big hands and the factory levers are not really reachable. At this weekend's match I will just continue to shoot it with the decockers.  I figure the safeties are cheap enough from CZ, I can try a few different prototypes to see if I can make something useable. Also this weekend I will be shooting Open Minor as we don't allow Compensators on our indoor range (it is pretty small).

Next and probably the final challenge is going to be 9mm Major. I am ordering a factory threaded barrel, I have a SJC 11 port Major Comp on the way now, made for a Glock so I know that it is definitely not going to be as sleek as the Springer Precision, or Primary Machine comps, but I know from first hand experience that this comp is made to take full advantage of the huge volume of gas generated by heavy charges of slow burning powder, and keep the gun shooting flat at 165-185 PF. I would like to be at 175ish to leave some meat on the bone at Chrono.

I have a couple 9 Major powders to try out first, and some good recommendations for others to try soon afterwards.  I helped a friend develop a load for his 2011 in 9 major, and 1 have a couple pounds of Auto Comp. We liked the way 6.9-7.2 gr of WAC behind a 124 gr xtreme shot. I also have 4 pounds of IMR SR-7625 to try, it was up until recently a favorite 9 Major powder of a many Friends who shoot 9 Open Guns, but they stopped making it a couple years ago.  Everyone raves about 3n38, I will order some of that soon along with possibly a couple others to really get some good load comparisons.

Over the next few months, I hope to really dial in the gun and the load. Possibly add a trigger with Overtravel stop, find or buy another race holster, and just shoot the crap out of it. I am also going to buy a couple extra mags, and cut and weld a 170mm mag that should get me 30-31 rounds.

Sorry the post is so long.


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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 01:36:03 PM
Here is the SJC Comp(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171211/7d4ae8423c94bbdc4fcc593e1f470d68.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 01:42:40 PM
"Slide ride vs frame mount for the optic hasn't been a problem, but then again Ive never used a frame mount optic so I may be missing out and not know."

I think the only advantage of the Frame mount is that the dot is not reciprocating with the slide, and makes tracking the dot that much faster. With my Minor PF loads and no comp the dot Stays within the Alpha/Charlie zone on the target out to 20 yards or so.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 11, 2017, 06:15:32 PM
jamiethesquid, Ive considered trying the SJC comp, just haven't pulled the trigger.  Glad you have one coming, be looking forward to hear how it works.  I can definitely give you some suggestions on powders as I have tried almost all of them.  Having all those ports you want as much gas as possible, your best bet is going to be running a 115gr projectile over HS-6, VV 3N38, or Accurate #7.  VV 3N38 will be a little tough to load, and will probably be a bit compressed depending on which bullet you use.  I much prefer JHP bullets but RN can be loaded much longer in the short CZ throats.  I have about 8lbs of 7625 and love it in 9mm minor.  Ive loaded some hot loads with it but haven't tried to make major with it.  I know some guys use to years ago, Ive just never given it a go. 


Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 07:27:35 PM
Thanks, I was thinking about ordering some Montana Gold 115's. I am so in love with the Xtremes the last couple years.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 07:29:36 PM
I have found that with the 124 or 165 Xtreme RN I can load all the way out to about 1.190"

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 08:00:39 PM
Actually before the MG I will try some XTreme 115's the price is much less.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 11, 2017, 11:11:50 PM
If you want to shoot a JHP I have found TJ Conevera Bullets can be loaded longer than any other JHP I have tried due to their less blunt profile. Very accurate too but a bit pricey. If you stick with xtreme RN make sure to get the heavy plate version as they are rated up to 1500 FPS, and I can attest they hold up well and are very accurate.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 11, 2017, 11:49:04 PM
Dave33. Thanks for the info.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 12, 2017, 12:49:59 AM
Following to see how that SJC comp works. And because this is really interesting!
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 10:23:58 AM
Dave 33, you say that you are using a 12 pound Spring. Where did you source that tuner pack of springs.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 11:07:40 AM
If we made a major comp, would people want steel or aluminum? We have a couple guys with 30K+ rounds on our aluminum stealth comps with zero erosion issues. So just not sure the insane amount of weight from a steel major comp would be worth it to you guys. Steel would be CONSIDERABLY more expensive to make.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 11:30:01 AM
Dave 33, you say that you are using a 12 pound Spring. Where did you source that tuner pack of springs.

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Cajun gun works, its on the last page of the 75 series parts, $30 for 5 different spring weights.  I really like the color coding to tell them apart.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 11:33:48 AM
I had bought the recoil calibration pack of CZ 75 springs from wolf a couple years ago, believe it covers this range of spring weights. I will have to check tonight.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 11:55:45 AM
If we made a major comp, would people want steel or aluminum? We have a couple guys with 30K+ rounds on our aluminum stealth comps with zero erosion issues. So just not sure the insane amount of weight from a steel major comp would be worth it to you guys. Steel would be CONSIDERABLY more expensive to make.

That's a good question.  Part of what makes a real open gun shoot flat/soft is the weight of an all steel gun.  Many glock open shooters add a frame weight to make the gun heavier and help soak up some muzzle flip so a steel comp would be more appealing to that train of thought if you plan to cross sell to other brands.  That being said, if the bulk of buyers are looking more for a range toy they may not want to spend the money for the more expensive steel. 

I would love a more specifically designed comp for major loads in steel to try out but I don't know that I would buy one based solely on the hope I like it better if its way more $$ than an AL comp, after all we are talking about dressing up a $500 gun that I'm sure was never intended to be used this way.  A significant amount of weight up front may throw off the balance of the gun as well since the rest of the gun is so light.

Now if you want to build a couple prototypes I would be happy to try them out for you as I have quite a bit of seat time on a P-09 in major 9. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 12:03:46 PM
If we made a major comp, would people want steel or aluminum? We have a couple guys with 30K+ rounds on our aluminum stealth comps with zero erosion issues. So just not sure the insane amount of weight from a steel major comp would be worth it to you guys. Steel would be CONSIDERABLY more expensive to make.

That's a good question.  Part of what makes a real open gun shoot flat/soft is the weight of an all steel gun.  Many glock open shooters add a frame weight to make the gun heavier and help soak up some muzzle flip so a steel comp would be more appealing to that train of thought if you plan to cross sell to other brands.  That being said, if the bulk of buyers are looking more for a range toy they may not want to spend the money for the more expensive steel. 

I would love a more specifically designed comp for major loads in steel to try out but I don't know that I would buy one based solely on the hope I like it better if its way more $$ than an AL comp, after all we are talking about dressing up a $500 gun that I'm sure was never intended to be used this way.  A significant amount of weight up front may throw off the balance of the gun as well since the rest of the gun is so light.

Now if you want to build a couple prototypes I would be happy to try them out for you as I have quite a bit of seat time on a P-09 in major 9. ;D ;D
Nah this is going to be a strait production run if/when we do it. With the software we use to design our comps, we already know they work before they're even made. ;)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 12:19:14 PM
All of the options available currently that aren't for a 2011 are Aluminum. So let's go with that. If I want more weight I will add it to the frame. Just my 2 cents.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 12:28:39 PM
How about this. We make it from 7075 with hard anodize like we currently make our Stealth Comps. You manage to shoot the comp out, which I doubt anyone ever will - and the new one is on us. Just send the old one back.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 12:51:02 PM
Sounds perfect. The SJC comp I have on the way is Aluminum, as are all the Springer, Carver, etc comps.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 01:15:15 PM
I think the comps are really a consumable for most open shooters, At $110 for the SJC, if it lasts me 20k rounds. That works out to like a $.005 per shot. That is a mere fraction of a fraction of what I invest in shooting. Personally I love the Design of the Primary Machine Stealth Comp and will probably buy one for my P-07 shooting Minor loads in the future. For a Major P-09 Stealth Comp, I would easily be willing to pay Double the Minor comp price.

As we have discussed in this thread and many others. (Brazos Custom) has a great article on his site about load development to run a compensators efficiently. What I (and any other Open Major USPSA/IPSC) am trying to accomplish is to Push a minor caliber at Major velocities, safely, without damaging our guns, and with a minimum of muzzle flip so the dot tracks consistently and we can shoot the gun as fast as possible. While getting the extra points for Major Power Factor.

I have shot more than a few open guns and when the load is properly developed for that gun and Compensator. The dot will track very consistently, and the gun will recoil much more linearly.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 01:22:33 PM
https://youtu.be/4ZLTLEGkLYE

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 01:41:25 PM
How about this. We make it from 7075 with hard anodize like we currently make our Stealth Comps. You manage to shoot the comp out, which I doubt anyone ever will - and the new one is on us. Just send the old one back.

I don't think longevity is in question for AL comps, just the designs and weight.  If you guys will make a Major comp for the P-09 I will not only buy one, I will send my slide in for lightening cuts and optic milling as well.  And if you can make this happen before spring next year that will be even better. ;D

That is unless I come across a steal on a Czechmate in the mean time, but what are the chances of that.  Who am I kidding, I would still keep the P-09 as a backup so put me down for the whole package. ;D ;D
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 02:19:22 PM
I would be down for a comp, lightening cuts/cocking Serrations, one of your "coming soon" flat triggers and probably have 6-7 mags nitrided, and slide refinished.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 02:22:57 PM
Also going to thread the barrel on my 1 St gen P-07 duty with factory extended barrel, have you guys cut the slide for front cocking Serrations, add a stealth comp for my SD loads and mill the slide for an RMR or first gen Delta Point

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 02:23:46 PM
https://youtu.be/4ZLTLEGkLYE

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I would love to see that from the side in real time and to know what the splits were.  Follow up shots were all in the -0 so probably pretty well set up.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 02:28:49 PM
This kid needs some attention after also(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171212/1f69d03330f95bce358222fe19bd63d5.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 02:30:29 PM
Dave 33 I plan to setup. A couple cameras from a couple different angles and get a ton of footage while I am working on load development.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 02:36:43 PM
Dave 33 I plan to setup. A couple cameras from a couple different angles and get a ton of footage while I am working on load development.

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Ive actually videoed shooting my P-09 with some AA#7 loads, it looked remarkably flat, but I would love to see it on slow motion.  When I do my part and grip the crap out of the gun the dot never appears to leave the glass.  It looks like a short red slightly crooked line.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 02:37:03 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 02:38:09 PM
Also looking into picking up one of these. https://youtu.be/aZ2yNKSAeb0

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 02:39:05 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.
And that is why we love you guys!! Give it some big Upward Ports, maybe a couple at 45 degrees and I think you will have a winner.  See that, the squeaky wheel does get the grease.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 03:15:05 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.

Great news, looking forward to it.  Any idea on a ballpark time frame?
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 12, 2017, 03:17:26 PM
Also looking into picking up one of these. https://youtu.be/aZ2yNKSAeb0

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How much something like that go for?  Never seen one before.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 03:21:13 PM
It is still in the early stages, but I believe their MSRP is under $300. A friend of mine in NY is sponsored by them and I got a chance to check it out at A7. Really don't see the camera in your Field of View. I have been running a Go Pro for years and I will probably set the Go Pro down range now or off to the side while shooting or doing load development

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 03:31:35 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.

Great news, looking forward to it.  Any idea on a ballpark time frame?
We should have a model drawn in the next week. Begin Production in the next 2-3. Hard anodize typically takes about 7-10 days.
I'd say probably mid - late January you guys will have them in your hands so long as things stay on that time line.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 04:20:16 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.

Great news, looking forward to it.  Any idea on a ballpark time frame?
We should have a model drawn in the next week. Begin Production in the next 2-3. Hard anodize typically takes about 7-10 days.
I'd say probably mid - late January you guys will have them in your hands so long as things stay on that time line.
I'll come down and run some machines if you are hiring. I just need a Better wage than my DOD job. Lol. Heck I will sweep the bleep floors and make coffee. I hate my Gov't Job

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 04:24:24 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.

Great news, looking forward to it.  Any idea on a ballpark time frame?
We should have a model drawn in the next week. Begin Production in the next 2-3. Hard anodize typically takes about 7-10 days.
I'd say probably mid - late January you guys will have them in your hands so long as things stay on that time line.
I'll come down and run some machines if you are hiring. I just need a Better wage than my DOD job. Lol. Heck I will sweep the bleep floors and make coffee. I hate my Gov't Job

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Lmao. Have CNC experience?
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 05:48:27 PM
Actually Yes.  for the US Navy and Bath Iron Works.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 05:49:23 PM
Still work for the Navy Actually, Just as a Civilian Now.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 05:52:30 PM
I am the Anti Submarine Warfare Lead for Naval Sea Systems Command in Washington DC, Career Fast Attack Submariner.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 05:53:30 PM
Me and Ryan just spoke. Open comp is definitely a go. As soon as we have a 3D model drawn we'll post pics and start taking pre orders.

Great news, looking forward to it.  Any idea on a ballpark time frame?
We should have a model drawn in the next week. Begin Production in the next 2-3. Hard anodize typically takes about 7-10 days.
I'd say probably mid - late January you guys will have them in your hands so long as things stay on that time line.
Can't wait

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 05:54:44 PM
We are going to make you famous as the first, to Open up, Open Division to the P-09. Catchy huh??

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 05:58:03 PM
Raining Brass you guys need a Bitchin' name for the Major Comp, not just Stealth 2. More like Veloci-Raptor, Or Bitchin' Camaro, or Better yet the Final Countdown Comp. https://youtu.be/9jK-NcRmVcw

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 12, 2017, 06:00:29 PM
We are going to make you famous as the first, to Open up, Open Division to the P-09. Catchy huh??

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A bit dramatic
A bunch need to be mentioned here

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 12, 2017, 07:27:26 PM
Lmao
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 13, 2017, 01:45:03 AM
Are you going to make these for 40 cal as well?
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on December 13, 2017, 09:07:50 AM
Are you going to make these for 40 cal as well?
Negative
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 13, 2017, 08:34:31 PM
How cool is this, we the Shooters, created a great forum, so we can share our Ideas with the other great enthusiests. And we come up with a cool new product. I hope that they laser engrave mine with their Gear Logo

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Joe L on December 14, 2017, 07:04:25 AM
Also looking into picking up one of these. https://youtu.be/aZ2yNKSAeb0

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This is the only thing I'm interested in in this whole thread.   :) :)
Joe
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: joedirt199 on December 14, 2017, 02:05:51 PM
Those glasses are prett cool. They already have the cheaper versions that don't have the camera adjustability that this one has so you get a better angle if you are a headup or head down shooter.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 30, 2017, 10:06:53 PM
Got the threaded barrel from CZ Custom today. (https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171231/08d7df7ea2e9ff8bbbb63bed57be3b72.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20171231/5990747c0a222465feafcb49eb06b129.jpg)

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Scarlett Pistol on December 30, 2017, 10:09:04 PM
Can't wait to hear how that monster comp works!
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 30, 2017, 10:35:12 PM
Can't wait to hear how that monster comp works!

+1  That sucker is gonna need a huge volume of gas. Looking forward to the range report. 
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 31, 2017, 02:48:08 AM
I am thinking about putting some set screws top and bottom to make it removeable for testing, SJC recommends putting it on with Red 272, but until we are back outdoors for our USPSA matches (no comps indoors, per club rules) I don't want to have to heat it to remove it. And I also plan to test the Primary Machine comp when that is available.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 31, 2017, 02:52:32 AM
The load given to me by a fellow shooter who used to shoot this comp and was Sponsored by SJC, uses WSF (Winchester Super Field) 6.9 to 7.4 grains, under a 124 gr Zero JHP on his Open Glock 17, it shot very flat, especially at the 7.4 gr load.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 31, 2017, 12:48:06 PM
The load given to me by a fellow shooter who used to shoot this comp and was Sponsored by SJC, uses WSF (Winchester Super Field) 6.9 to 7.4 grains, under a 124 gr Zero JHP on his Open Glock 17, it shot very flat, especially at the 7.4 gr load.

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I have never tried WSF at major PF, but didnt care much for it at minor.  Never could get good accuracy with it for some reason.  Will be interested to see how it works for you.  I do think a slower powder would do better, but you just never know til you try.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on December 31, 2017, 12:59:24 PM
The load given to me by a fellow shooter who used to shoot this comp and was Sponsored by SJC, uses WSF (Winchester Super Field) 6.9 to 7.4 grains, under a 124 gr Zero JHP on his Open Glock 17, it shot very flat, especially at the 7.4 gr load.

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Thats the same comp I run on my CZ Open Gun. (Sp-01 Shadow) like others have said you need a lot of gas volume. My favorite load for it so far has been 9.7gr of aa7 and a 115gr bullet.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 31, 2017, 06:09:30 PM
The load given to me by a fellow shooter who used to shoot this comp and was Sponsored by SJC, uses WSF (Winchester Super Field) 6.9 to 7.4 grains, under a 124 gr Zero JHP on his Open Glock 17, it shot very flat, especially at the 7.4 gr load.

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Thats the same comp I run on my CZ Open Gun. (Sp-01 Shadow) like others have said you need a lot of gas volume. My favorite load for it so far has been 9.7gr of aa7 and a 115gr bullet.
Thanks for the info, I plan to try as many powders as I can get my hands on locally before I make up my mind.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 31, 2017, 07:25:32 PM
The load given to me by a fellow shooter who used to shoot this comp and was Sponsored by SJC, uses WSF (Winchester Super Field) 6.9 to 7.4 grains, under a 124 gr Zero JHP on his Open Glock 17, it shot very flat, especially at the 7.4 gr load.

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Thats the same comp I run on my CZ Open Gun. (Sp-01 Shadow) like others have said you need a lot of gas volume. My favorite load for it so far has been 9.7gr of aa7 and a 115gr bullet.
I have been looking for some AA7 locally

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: dave33 on December 31, 2017, 08:17:55 PM
AA7 and VV3N38 have been my favorite powders so far, both very accurate and soft shooting.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on December 31, 2017, 09:05:26 PM
AA7 and VV3N38 have been my favorite powders so far, both very accurate and soft shooting.
They will definitely be tested. I just hate to pay hazmat and shipping for one pound. Once I settle on one I will order an 8 pound jug probably combine an order with a couple friends.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Raining_Brass on January 02, 2018, 05:23:52 PM
Here you guys go! late Merry Christmas. With the flow testing we've done on this model, we're more than confident that it will do everything you guys want it to do....and some.

(https://i.imgur.com/6R4ttIb.png)

(https://i.imgur.com/9utV8tO.png)

Pre orders here: http://primarymachine.com/cz-p-07-09-major-stealth-comp/
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on January 02, 2018, 07:22:32 PM
Primary Machine is the Best!!!  Ordering one now!!

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: ThompsonCustom on January 02, 2018, 07:23:33 PM
Thats pretty sweet. Thanks for designing a cz comp we differently need more big comps for all the cz platforms.
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on January 02, 2018, 08:05:33 PM
I just ordered one.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: jameslovesjammie on January 02, 2018, 08:25:54 PM
Here you guys go! late Merry Christmas.

Wow.  I might have to get a threaded P09 now.  That is just too cool!
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: IDescribe on January 02, 2018, 10:52:01 PM
That is just too cool!

+1  That is awfully sweet.  ;)
Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on January 03, 2018, 09:56:10 PM
I can't wait to see how the profile of the comp and the profile of the slide match up

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: Jamiethesquid on January 25, 2018, 06:50:33 PM
Looks like there wasn't enough interest toake this happen this go Around.

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Title: Re: Project poor mans open P09
Post by: texasmojo on January 25, 2018, 07:19:47 PM
@primary, you guys need to make a flared magwell for the P07. Please!