Post by: Floridashooter on January 13, 2017, 10:09:52 PM
Anyway,I have them sighted in at 100yrds.Shooting from a bench w/Harris bipod,niether one can do better than 3"groups,which is unacceptable.
I have heard guys getting better than 1/2" groups.I'd settle for 1" I am a decent shooter,and I also let shooting buddies try w/same results.
I have used Federal 5.56 55 grain FMJ,American Eagle .223 55grain FMJ Nd American Eagle .223 62 grain.And various ammo my buddies shoot succesfully in their rifles..Some better,but all unacceptable.
I really doubt that both rifles have bad barrels.Sounds like maybe I am using the wrong ammo.
Don't want to give up on these rifles because I actually like the way they handle.Nice triggers too.
Can someone suggest something?Maybe the ammo they are successful with.
Thanks
Post by: Kayaknjames on January 14, 2017, 06:29:31 AM
Post by: M1A4ME on January 14, 2017, 08:04:27 AM
If you don't reload the best solution would be to buy a boxes of different brands/bullet weights/styles of bullets and head to the range to see what shoots best in your rifles.
I've heard some people say they can shoot up to 75 grain bullets in their 1 turn in 9" barrels and others will say that 69 grain is as heavy as they can go and maintain bullet stability/group size.
Barrel fouling? Isn't that one of the characteristics of a .223? I remember when I got my first on back in 1981 or 82, a Rem. M700 Varmint Special. It took three times as long to get the barrel clean as it did for my M1A or one of the 30.06 rifles. I finally just accepted that the smaller the bore the dirtier the barrel got.
I haven't see the AR15's be any better in that category (just talking barrel here, nothing gets as dirty in the receiver/bolt area as an AR15).
Post by: painter on January 14, 2017, 08:07:35 AM
(https://c1.staticflickr.com/9/8003/7456330040_4a1a3166be_b.jpg)
Post by: Floridashooter on January 15, 2017, 11:01:56 AM
All I have tried so far is standard Federal and American eagle ammo,which does well in my buddies Axis. If they do not respond to Sierra match king,or Hornady American gunner,I give up.All my rifles do well with those.
I was also thinking about glass bedding the actions.I have good a buddy who is great at it and willing.My 550 American groups under 1/2" at 100 after we did it.But,it was shooting good groups out the box before we bedded it too!
Post by: jameslovesjammie on January 15, 2017, 11:51:15 AM
I run a snake through the barrel every time, after each shooting session.
Based on your symptoms, I would think you have a pretty fouled bore.
Boresnakes don't do well on heavily deposited copper. They are fine for light carbon buildup, but you need a copper removing solvent to really get a clean bore.
I would suggest:
1. Deep cleaning the barrel with a copper removing solvent. You'll know all the copper is out when the patches don't turn blue. You may end up with forearms that look like Popeye's, but the gun will never group with heavily deposited copper in it.
2. Re-checking the torque on the rings. If you have access to a torque wrench, it will be all the better.
3. Use better ammo. I have never had what I would consider a decent group with surplus FMJ's. The Federal Premium Sierra Matchkings you listed should produce a decent group.
If all else fails, go ahead and bed the action. It won't hurt anything, and almost always makes some improvement.
Post by: staggsofdryvalley on January 15, 2017, 03:24:38 PM
Post by: Diamond Jim on January 17, 2017, 12:03:26 PM
Post by: Diamond Jim on January 23, 2017, 04:24:47 AM
I suggest you visit a reputable gunsmith (if you can find one) to look over the rifle/s and check the basics - including crown and headspace along with scope mounting and stock screws etc. Also a thorough cleaning - were they new rifles? Did you follow a "break in" procedure (I know many think it is bogus but I do it anyway - whether it helps or not I can't say but it makes me content I've done everything to give the barrel the best chance to show its potential)
You say you've had experienced shooters shoot them with the same results so that suggests it's not your technique. If the rifles check out OK i'm at a loss to explain it.
In my limited experience with three only CZs - 452, 527 and 550 - I'd be very disappointed with 1.5in at 100m :-\
Post by: painter on January 23, 2017, 06:38:13 AM
Post by: Diamond Jim on January 25, 2017, 11:05:01 AM
Faster twist will prefer heavier projectiles.
Post by: painter on January 25, 2017, 12:05:02 PM
If the OP would like I can ask.
Edit...
I asked the other gentleman where he ended up.
He's gotten his best results with Fiocchi 62gr at .5 moa. He added that everything else he used up to 75gr performed very well with results dropping off over that weight.
Post by: Floridashooter on January 28, 2017, 03:10:46 PM
I called CZ customer service and they are having me send them back,one at a time,so they can check them out.I am waiting for the pre paid box to arrive.Average turnover time is 2-6 weeks.I will let you guys know what transpires.
In the meantime,I am going to order a variety of bullets that were recommended.I am not giving up on these rifles.All my other CZ's shoot great.I am determined to get good results.
Post by: bravo5two on February 09, 2017, 07:12:24 AM
Post by: Floridashooter on March 05, 2017, 04:29:11 AM
Mounted Vortex Diamondback 4-16x42 scopes on them with my old CZ mounts and laser sighted them in.Got the Euro varmint out to the range today,
I shot 40 rds of 55g Am Eagle through it then switch to Hornady Am Gunner 55g(my favorite plinking round).The groups were around 1/2"@100yrds.
All in all I am much happier with the varmint model than the American,since I only benchrest shoot anymore.The American model would be beter in the field for hunting.
Anyway,I had a busy day out here and did not get a chance to shoot any further or get to sight in the Thumbhole varmint.Maybe next week.
Post by: 223man1 on March 11, 2017, 02:27:38 PM
I also have a CZ 527 M1 American with synthetic stock, it was purchased in mid 2014. Actually the factory 3-shot target that came with the rifle is dated november 26, 2013.
I thougt It had a 1:9 twist, because the CZ webpage says it has, but CZ apparently changed the twist rate from 1:12 to 1:9 in early 2014. I measured the twist rate on my CZ 527 using the cleaning rod and it is unfortunately a 1:12 twist...... :-[
I have problems with most bullets heavier than 55 grains, the exception is the Federal Fusion 62 grains cartridge, it groups around 1" at 100 yards. Not sure why this bullet work, it must be something in that construction that makes it work in a 1:12 gun.
The Winchester 64 grains Power Max on the other hand did not work at all in the CZ 527 with 1:12 twist, the bullets was all over the place at 100 yards with 10-12" spread. Terrible!
Same story with the Barnes 55 grains TTSX copper bullet, I could hardly hit a 2x2 feet target at 100 yards. The Barnes TTSX bullet is too long (much longer than a 55 grains copper/lead bullet) so it will not work in a 1:12 rifle.
I have now tried the 50 grains Barnes TTSX, and it seems to work OK, but I am not completely satisfied with accuracy, it groups around 1.5" at 100 yards, not that great. I have reloaded with 24 grains of Norma 201 powder, using Norma cases. C.O.L is 55.6mm (2.189"). I measured the max C.O.L to 56.6mm (2.228") with the 50 grains TTSX bullet, so i have 1mm of headspace.
The Norma case by the way has more volume than the S&B cases (and most other 223 cases), so I have to use 1 grains less powder in S&B cases.
I will now try 25.5 grains of Vihtavuori N-140, to see if a bit slower powder will work better. I tried the 55 grains TTSX with 25 grains of Vihtavuori N-140 and it cronographed at 2870 f/sec. So I assume 0.5 grains more powder with a 5 grains lighter bullet will be OK.
The S&B 55grains FMJ bulk ammo works OK, but accuracy is not that great (1.5"+ at 100 yards). The best factory ammo I have tried so far is the RWS 55grains SP and the Norma 53 grains SP, but the CZ is a "touchy" gun when it comes to ammo.
I just wish I had the 1:9 twist version...... :'(
I think I will replace it with a Howa Mini Action or a Sauer 100 Classic XT 223rem when I can afford it.
Best regards
223 gunner from Norway
Post by: FieldGrade on March 15, 2017, 12:41:07 AM
Post by: M1A4ME on March 15, 2017, 08:25:59 AM
That may be a contributor to your accuracy issues. It's like trying to load/shoot a 65 or 70 grain bullet and your 1 turn in 12" barrel just isn't spinning it fast enough.
The most accurate bullets my 1 turn in 12" M700 varmint rifle like were the 45 grain bullets by Sierra or Hornady sitting on top of IMR4198 powder. It's a faster burning powder than many use in .223's but a 45 grain bullet is lighter than a lot of people use, too.
I bought, but never really used, the 52 and 52 grain Sierra match bullets.
Post by: 223man1 on March 15, 2017, 03:24:59 PM
Well, anyhow, I get reasonable results in stability with the 50 grains TTSX bullets, surely fine for shooting Roe Deer at up to 100 yards. But I am wondering if I should try the 45 grains TSX bullet also. The 45 grains bullet is 0.698" long and the 50 grains is 0.812" long (with a 0.118" long plastic tip), so in theory the 45 grains should have better stability in my 1:12" twist rifle. But, the bullets are getting very light so not sure about penetration in wild game (European Roe Deer). Copper bullets are fine here because of no lead fragments in the meat.
Also, here up North I am shooting in below freezing temperatures this time of year. And according to this calculator, the temperature has an influence on stability:
http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi (http://www.jbmballistics.com/cgi-bin/jbmstab-5.1.cgi)
Post by: Coop45 on April 04, 2017, 10:59:23 PM
Hello,
I also have a CZ 527 M1 American with synthetic stock, it was purchased in mid 2014. Actually the factory 3-shot target that came with the rifle is dated november 26, 2013.
I thougt It had a 1:9 twist, because the CZ webpage says it has, but CZ apparently changed the twist rate from 1:12 to 1:9 in early 2014. I measured the twist rate on my CZ 527 using the cleaning rod and it is unfortunately a 1:12 twist...... :-[
I have problems with most bullets heavier than 55 grains, the exception is the Federal Fusion 62 grains cartridge, it groups around 1" at 100 yards. Not sure why this bullet work, it must be something in that construction that makes it work in a 1:12 gun.
The Winchester 64 grains Power Max on the other hand did not work at all in the CZ 527 with 1:12 twist, the bullets was all over the place at 100 yards with 10-12" spread. Terrible!
Same story with the Barnes 55 grains TTSX copper bullet, I could hardly hit a 2x2 feet target at 100 yards. The Barnes TTSX bullet is too long (much longer than a 55 grains copper/lead bullet) so it will not work in a 1:12 rifle.
I have now tried the 50 grains Barnes TTSX, and it seems to work OK, but I am not completely satisfied with accuracy, it groups around 1.5" at 100 yards, not that great. I have reloaded with 24 grains of Norma 201 powder, using Norma cases. C.O.L is 55.6mm (2.189"). I measured the max C.O.L to 56.6mm (2.228") with the 50 grains TTSX bullet, so i have 1mm of headspace.
The Norma case by the way has more volume than the S&B cases (and most other 223 cases), so I have to use 1 grains less powder in S&B cases.
I will now try 25.5 grains of Vihtavuori N-140, to see if a bit slower powder will work better. I tried the 55 grains TTSX with 25 grains of Vihtavuori N-140 and it cronographed at 2870 f/sec. So I assume 0.5 grains more powder with a 5 grains lighter bullet will be OK.
The S&B 55grains FMJ bulk ammo works OK, but accuracy is not that great (1.5"+ at 100 yards). The best factory ammo I have tried so far is the RWS 55grains SP and the Norma 53 grains SP, but the CZ is a "touchy" gun when it comes to ammo.
I just wish I had the 1:9 twist version...... :'(
I think I will replace it with a Howa Mini Action or a Sauer 100 Classic XT 223rem when I can afford it.
Best regards
223 gunner from Norway
My 12 twist likes Sierra 1410 bullets ....52 gr Matchking
Post by: 223man1 on April 05, 2017, 03:12:01 PM
I just tried that exact bullet (Sierra MatchKing HPBT, 52 grains) and I can place 5 shots within 0.8" or better at 110 yards.
This is the one bullet to use in the CZ 527 in 223REM with the 1:12" twist barrel. Excellent bullet !!
I used Lapua Match cases, and 24.5 grains of Norma 201 powder. C.O.L is 55.4 mm. Velocity was around 900 m/sec. (2950 fps).
https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1410/224-dia-52-gr-HPBT (https://www.sierrabullets.com/store/product.cfm/sn/1410/224-dia-52-gr-HPBT)
Post by: M1A4ME on April 05, 2017, 03:42:09 PM
I've read (read it, not proved it to myself) that quite often the flat based bullets are more accurate inside 300 yds. than the boat tailed bullets.
Just in case you run across a box of the flat based bullets.
I bought several boxes of the match bullets (Sierra) many years ago for my M700 varmint special but ended up getting groups from the flat based 45 grain spritzer hunting bullets that were just as good, so I never shot all those up.
Post by: jameslovesjammie on April 05, 2017, 09:41:46 PM
My 12 twist likes Sierra 1410 bullets ....52 gr Matchking
That is my favorite bullet in a Remington 788 and Winchester 70 Featherweight .223 (both 1/12"). This bullet combined with a healthy charge of Ramshot X-Terminator is great for shooting coyotes and doing minimal damage to the pelts.
Doesn't Sierra also make a flat based hollow point match bullet?
It's the 53 grain Matchking. Same thing only different. ;D
At 100 yards, I haven't seen much difference between the two. That being said, neither of my bolt .223's are exactly match grade.
Post by: cknpro on August 15, 2017, 10:40:19 PM
Post by: shangai on August 30, 2017, 02:12:44 AM
(http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/150x100q90/924/JS6qLX.jpg) (http://imageshack.com/f/poJS6qLXj)
With this bullet(hand loaded) I got perfect group, cca. 1/3 MOA...
Post by: jameslovesjammie on August 30, 2017, 08:41:57 AM
With this bullet(hand loaded) I got perfect group, cca. 1/3 MOA...
Did you shoot multiple groups with this load, or was it just the one group? I guess I would say that the question I am having is was it repeatable or just a single good group? If it shot multiple small groups with the 77 grain SMK...well, that's awesome!
Some rifles do weird things with different bullets. The tightest group that I shot in my AR (5R 1/8 twist) was with a 40 grain ballistic tip bullet. That length of bullet isn't supposed to stabilize with that twist rate, but it did.
Post by: shangai on August 30, 2017, 11:39:38 AM
https://imageshack.us/i/pm1xsOI1j
First I shot a middle target(5shots), second was left target(4shots). I was very dissapointed with these targets, and shot right target probably worst that day, but result was great - cca. 10mm/100m, 4 shots! :) Vo is cca. 890m/s!