The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Tactics and Competition => Topic started by: Scarlett Pistol on February 16, 2017, 02:53:04 PM
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So grip strength training is important for pistol shooting. A common implement are the Captains of Crush, or similar tools. I've used them and they are great! But I was thinking... These are strengthening the motion of squeezing and holding, but the pistol moves in a specific direction against your fingers, which activates muscles in a seemingly different way than only using the Captains of Crush style trainers. Now, this is me just analyzing... I'm not a physical therapist with expertise in muscle groups and bio-mechanics, so I could be all wrong. But here's what I am going to try.
Take one of these parts that is made to wedge between doors and door frames and hold resistance bands.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/81ca4d43b2feff48b574e0785ee821bd.jpg)
Put it into place per the instructions. As for height put it about 12" or so below the height of where you hold your pistol.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/abc83bd3b62796115542916e93d6b48f.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/80e91f347e9e1c16bc09291020790f23.jpg)
Now loop a resistance band through. The choice in band resistance is up to you.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/d5760a31f5c1359daf1687de91ac8cc9.jpg)
[IMG witdh=500]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/5835f5bd76a3d40f6291c77b17d2be72.jpg[/img]
Now I am using a hammer. Turn in it upside down and looping the band's handles around the hammer head. Use whatever implement you'd like to accomplish this concept. It would be awesome if I could get a blue gun and mount a steel rod up into the handle and make a loop on the bottom of the rod. Oh man, someone do that and if this works you'll make a sh*t ton of money. Just send me a few of them for taking the idea. Anyway, now grip the hammer and bring it up to simulate your grip for holding a pistol. I focus on a strong hand front to back grip that directly opposes the motion of a pistol in recoil. Do as you like, but the closer to your grip and the way you hold out your arm in real life shooting the more accurately you'll target the desired muscle groups. Now I am letting the hammer head forward toward the door and I pull it back. Doing reps and then holding. I'm also trying to not use my trigger finger. Do strong and weak hands to cross train.
[IMG witdh=500]https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/c0ad841d90d525b8277b8ac8a294c6ef.jpg[/img]
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/12eb7d0c5efc33bc222078e52a6b65ed.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170216/3bcbdc6c4465e7b742224e02c6fd7255.jpg)
I'm going to do this for a few weeks. See how it goes and see what nuances I discover, things to change, etc. If anyone gives it a try let me know how it goes!
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A Glock with a 32-round mag might work instead of the hammer.
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A Glock with a 32-round mag might work instead of the hammer.
Ha, funny you mention that. I have a 30 rounder for CZ's and was thinking about trying it right after I posted this. I'll give it a try and see how it goes/holds up.
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looks like it would be good to build up the wrist.
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I honestly don't see much purpose in this. The gripping motion in this is just ulnar deviation which you don't really ever do while shooting. Your description of grip trainers is why I don't feel all too strongly about them because you do sustained holds rather than repetitions during shooting.
If you want to build up your ulnar deviator muscles (Extensor carpi ulnaris), you're far better off just doing hammer curls. For more applicable grip strength training, you can incorporate farmer walks (you can leave your index finger off the weight if you truly desire, but it will not make that big of a difference).
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I honestly don't see much purpose in this. The gripping motion in this is just ulnar deviation which you don't really ever do while shooting. Your description of grip trainers is why I don't feel all too strongly about them because you do sustained holds rather than repetitions during shooting.
If you want to build up your ulnar deviator muscles (Extensor carpi ulnaris), you're far better off just doing hammer curls. For more applicable grip strength training, you can incorporate farmer walks (you can leave your index finger off the weight if you truly desire, but it will not make that big of a difference).
Pardon my ignorance, but what is a farmer walk?
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I honestly don't see much purpose in this. The gripping motion in this is just ulnar deviation which you don't really ever do while shooting. Your description of grip trainers is why I don't feel all too strongly about them because you do sustained holds rather than repetitions during shooting.
If you want to build up your ulnar deviator muscles (Extensor carpi ulnaris), you're far better off just doing hammer curls. For more applicable grip strength training, you can incorporate farmer walks (you can leave your index finger off the weight if you truly desire, but it will not make that big of a difference).
Hold please... You have a wealth of knowledge, I just need to go do some reading on anatomy so I can better understand and then ask better questions.
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I agree that the exercise in the OP video isn't going to be useful for shooting. Just gripping the pistol as hard as you can without trembling or losing finger dexterity is what's going to lock everything down as best it can be. There are better options to increase grip strength.
This is the previously mentioned farmer's carry/walk:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tb90msWET3E
I do these 3 days/week. You can also do them with dumbbells, but they're much easier with dumbbells, so I opt for the specialized farmers bars that take more from you to keep stabilized. Great for grip. Great for traps.
I also use the Captains of Crush grip trainers. While it's true you don't do reps in shooting, increased grip strength is increased grip strength. And if you want to use them in an isometric hold for sustained grip, there's nothing stopping you from doing so -- I sometimes do. And I also, after exhaustion, use my free hand to help close them, then do a slow eccentric release. You can increase your grip strength significantly with these.
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Alright, this is pass one at some anatomy so I can hopefully get the most out of SlvrDragon50 since I know his expertise is in this field.
For grip strength, muscles that cause flexion in the finger joints are strengthened. Extension shouldn't be neglected, obviously. From a little crash course there a few muscles in the anterior forearm that flex different joints as well and different fingers. I am guessing working different fingers individually is only necessary for improving dexterity and control.
Now, when the pistol fires and goes into recoil we hear about "locking our wrists". From what I am learning, if my forearm and hand are out in front of me, so that my palm is facing up and flat, and then I rotate my wrist so the inside side with my pinky rotates inwards (with my right hand it would rotate counter clockwise). This movement is called adduction or lunar Deviation. I had to watch this video for these movements and their names to become totally clear.
https://youtu.be/uvaQnh-p0uU
To counter recoil, not only do our fingers need strong flexion strength, but we need strong forearm muscles related to adduction. Not because we want adduction while shooting, but because we do not want the opposite motion to happen, which is abduction (when the muzzle rises because our wrists rotate upwards with recoil). I would assume those muscles responsible for adduction being strengthened and capable of sustained holds would be beneficial?
Am I getting close to understanding the anatomy and corresponding biomechanics? 1) grip strength for muscles responsible for finger joint flexion and 2) wrist locking strength with muscles responsible for wrist adduction or ulnar Deviation?
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I agree that the exercise in the OP video isn't going to be useful for shooting. Just gripping the pistol as hard as you can without trembling or losing finger dexterity is what's going to lock everything down as best it can be. There are better options to increase grip strength.
This is the previously mentioned farmer's carry/walk:
I do these 3 days/week. You can also do them with dumbbells, but they're much easier with dumbbells, so I opt for the specialized farmers bars that take more from you to keep stabilized. Great for grip. Great for traps.
I also use the Captains of Crush grip trainers. While it's true you don't do reps in shooting, increased grip strength is increased grip strength. And if you want to use them in an isometric hold for sustained grip, there's nothing stopping you from doing so -- I sometimes do. And I also, after exhaustion, use my free hand to help close them, then do a slow eccentric release. You can increase your grip strength significantly with these.
Cool, thanks. I also did these as a kid with five gallon buckets of water carried to the barn to water the livestock, which was about 50-60 yards from the hand pump next to the house. Seemed like a 150-yard carry to a young me. Of course the handles on those buckets were very small diameters compared to a barbell which maybe effected strength developed. I'd bet a barbell with grips molded to the shape of a handgun grip would be best.
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STOP
;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)
You're going about this wrong. You have been taught how to perform hundreds of physical actions in your lifetime with neither descriptions of muscles nor modes and planes of movement.
This next part is not technique. This is so you can see what's going on. Hold your strong hand out in front of you, thumb-side of your hand upward, but hand and arm relaxed. This is the neutral hand position. Now, keeping that arm and hand relaxed, take your weak hand and move the strong hand up and down at the wrist the way the gun would move under recoil. Again, no fist. Relax the hand and arm. Use the weak hand to move your strong hand up and down. NOW make a hard fist with your strong hand and try the same thing. Wrist doesn't move? That's the lesson. Of course, YOU can CHOOSE to move the hand up and down with a hard fist, but it's no longer a soft wrist. The act of making a fist tightens that wrist into place. Hard fist = hard wrist. If you like, you can do the same thing and start with a relaxed fist, letting the weak hand move that wrist up and down, then slowly tighten the strong hand fist so that you can feel the wrist tighten up.
That's how you lock down the wrist -- make a fist. Or in terms of shooting, GRIP your pistol hard. You don't lock the wrist in during shooting by locking the wrist. You lock the wrist by gripping the pistol hard. There are a couple of acronyms for this that are inappropriate for this family-friendly forum, but I'll give you the G-Rated version -- G.T. BOOI -- Grip The Bejeezus Out Of It. Or the R-rated versions -- G.T. SOOI & G.T. FOOI -- I'll let you figure out what those alternate letters stand for.
The second part of the steel grip is accomplished at the elbows (this is a lie; it's at the shoulders, but the easiest way to conceptualize it is with happening at the elbows ;) O0 ). Holding the gun out in front of you, hard grip, rotate your elbows out. This will clamp your hands down on the pistol. If you don't have a pistol handy, clasp your hands together, fingers inter-laced, and hold them out in front of you, or grab something small to grip like a gun, and present it or your clasped hands like you're aiming at a target, preparing to fire. Now rotate your elbows out. Can you feel your hands clamping down on the pistol? You can get a tremendous amount of additional grip force out of your shoulders by rotating your elbows out.
So improve your grip strength. Your shoulders are already strong enough to tear your grip apart, so no need to improve there, unless... you know... fitness? O0 But every bit of additional grip strength you earn will also allow you to clamp down even more with stronger pronation from the shoulder. Sorry!! -- I mean by rotating your elbows out harder. ;)
This is the easiest way to conceptualize it, and conceptualizing counts for a lot.
Also, a youtube search for "Bob Vogel on Grip" will produce a pretty good video. It's not quite the same with a CZ as with his Glock, but the fundamental principles are the same.
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That all makes sense.
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You're right in describing the muscles and actions, but the thing is that these muscles are small! So isolation exercises for these muscles in your forearm are typically not extremely effective, and I think you're at higher risk of stressing your tendons by doing isolation exercises. The reason why I suggest farmer walks or hammer curls is because they will use all of your forearm muscles in a relatively isometric contraction without stressing your ECU tendon (or any of the other wrist tendons) which are easily damaged and an absolute pain. I have a very easily inflamed tendon in my left wrist that I have to take NSAIDs for quite often, and I'm pretty sure it was from placing too much of a load on my ECU (either from tennis or benching).
If you really want to improve grip strength, work on carrying weights of large diameter. The smaller the diameter then the easier it is. They sell these grip increasers that wrap onto barbells that will dramatically increase the difficulty of your exercise by placing a greater load on your forearms: https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-Grips-2-5-Extreme-Dumbbell/dp/B00B6I2TOK I am not a big fan of the grip crushers because the load isn't uniform, and it stresses your ulnar tendons too much for comfort. It is very easy to injure yourself if you overtrain with the grip crushers.
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You're right in describing the muscles and actions, but the thing is that these muscles are small! So isolation exercises for these muscles in your forearm are typically not extremely effective, and I think you're at higher risk of stressing your tendons by doing isolation exercises. The reason why I suggest farmer walks or hammer curls is because they will use all of your forearm muscles in a relatively isometric contraction without stressing your ECU tendon (or any of the other wrist tendons) which are easily damaged and an absolute pain. I have a very easily inflamed tendon in my left wrist that I have to take NSAIDs for quite often, and I'm pretty sure it was from placing too much of a load on my ECU (either from tennis or benching).
If you really want to improve grip strength, work on carrying weights of large diameter. The smaller the diameter then the easier it is. They sell these grip increasers that wrap onto barbells that will dramatically increase the difficulty of your exercise by placing a greater load on your forearms: https://www.amazon.com/Alpha-Grips-2-5-Extreme-Dumbbell/dp/B00B6I2TOK I am not a big fan of the grip crushers because the load isn't uniform, and it stresses your ulnar tendons too much for comfort. It is very easy to injure yourself if you overtrain with the grip crushers.
These make sense to me for grip strength training for shooters since a gun's grip is larger than a barbell's diameter.
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I'm a huge fan of farmer's carries, but not so much a fan of using barbells, weight plates, dumbbells, or specialty apparatus or barbells designed to let you carry heavy loads. I prefer the 27 liter blue Reliance water jugs that you can pick up at Walmart or on Amazon for about $12. They will hold about 65 pounds of water, but I suggest only filling them to about 45 to 55 pounds. Once filled start taking treks up and down your block working on the distance that you can walk before you have to set the jugs down. The shape of the jugs forces you to hold them slightly away from your body. The water sloshing works your accessory muscles and your core. And of course it helps your shoulders tremendously along with your grip strength.
I run obstacle course races and recently competed at the OCR World Championships in Canada. I can testify that farmer's carries using water jugs or Jerry Cans is a phenomenal exercise for grip strength, core strength, and shoulder stability.
Sent from my SM-G935P using Tapatalk
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Water jugs are a very cheap way to make some weights! I like the water movement and having to hold away from your body as well. :) I just use some pretty fat 45 lb plates and walk a few laps around my gym's track. My hands get super sweaty which makes it a challenging endeavor. I can only got an 1/8 of a mile before I have to drop the weights.
One thing to note when you do the farmer's walk is to make sure you don't round your posture. Stay tall.
(https://www.t-nation.com/img/photos/2011/11-707-01/head-alignment.jpg)
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Thanks for sharing all the info and thanks for taking the time go so in depth SlvrDragon50. I'll definitely integrate these suggestions.
I still want to try this work out with my 30 round magazine in one of my CZ's. BUT... Rather than working rotation I'll just go to my normal 2 hand grip and practice dry firing. This is just with the intent of solidifying subconscious grip through trigger pull, recoil and releasing the trigger. I know.... Just go shoot more... But I don't have the luxury of time right now to get out as much as I'd like so this is just an attempt at a supplemental training
Thanks again, I didn't expect such great feedback, but this is a forum where I guess I should expect that in all regards.
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ID,
THANK YOU for that excellent write up. I have been doing my own reading and trying to incorporate handgun-specific exercises into my weekly weightlifting routines.
I have been spending about 20mins 2x/wk doing levering (forearm isolation) with a heavy maul and feel (totally subjectively) that it has improved my ability to control the pistol under recoil. However, Based on your write up forearm work of any kind is not going to make much difference for shooting, is that correct?
Previously I was doing gripper work but found that between grippers and dry firing I was heavily overtraining my trigger finger. This lead to both poor performance on grippers and demotivated me from dry firing, so I stopped doing them.
I replaced the gripper work with pinch grip deadlifts (I grip the plates instead of the bar) and a set of towel pull ups after a few sets of weighted pull ups for crushing strength.
Would love to hear your feedback on my routine.
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ID,
THANK YOU for that excellent write up. I have been doing my own reading and trying to incorporate handgun-specific exercises into my weekly weightlifting routines.
I have been spending about 20mins 2x/wk doing levering (forearm isolation) with a heavy maul and feel (totally subjectively) that it has improved my ability to control the pistol under recoil. However, Based on your write up forearm work of any kind is not going to make much difference for shooting, is that correct?
Previously I was doing gripper work but found that between grippers and dry firing I was heavily overtraining my trigger finger. This lead to both poor performance on grippers and demotivated me from dry firing, so I stopped doing them.
I replaced the gripper work with pinch grip deadlifts (I grip the plates instead of the bar) and a set of towel pull ups after a few sets of weighted pull ups for crushing strength.
Would love to hear your feedback on my routine.
A forearm workout will definitely help your ability to shoot, but it shouldn't be a priority since it's more technique than strength.
Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT9IamQhSeI&t=93s
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A forearm workout will definitely help your ability to shoot, but it shouldn't be a priority since it's more technique than strength.
^^^ Exactly ^^^
Greater grip strength is of benefit, and grip strength comes mostly from your forearm, so your shooting can definitely benefit from forearm work. What I intended was that trying to isolate and work the muscles that adduct the wrist was the wrong way to go about training. It's not like you're going to actively adduct the wrist against recoil. Since making a hard fist tightens down the wrist, it's general forearm/grip strength work that you want.
Your levering is a fine idea -- that's recruiting a whole lot of muscles. Towel pull-ups are awesome (you're a better man than I am). Grenade pull-ups would be great if you have access to those. Hammer curls, as SlvrDragon mentioned earlier, as well as farmer's carry. Your pinch grip deadlifts are doing something, but I personally would do the pinch grip farmers walk Slvr suggested before I did that. You could also stack three smaller plates together and walk around while pinching those, trying to hold that sandwich together without the middle plate sliding out.
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A forearm workout will definitely help your ability to shoot, but it shouldn't be a priority since it's more technique than strength.
^^^ Exactly ^^^
Greater grip strength is of benefit, and grip strength comes mostly from your forearm, so your shooting can definitely benefit from forearm work. What I intended was that trying to isolate and work the muscles that adduct the wrist was the wrong way to go about training. It's not like you're going to actively adduct the wrist against recoil. Since making a hard fist tightens down the wrist, it's general forearm/grip strength work that you want.
Your levering is a fine idea -- that's recruiting a whole lot of muscles. Towel pull-ups are awesome (you're a better man than I am). Grenade pull-ups would be great if you have access to those. Hammer curls, as SlvrDragon mentioned earlier, as well as farmer's carry. Your pinch grip deadlifts are doing something, but I personally would do the pinch grip farmers walk Slvr suggested before I did that. You could also stack three smaller plates together and walk around while pinching those, trying to hold that sandwich together without the middle plate sliding out.
Thanks for the reply.
What I'm getting from that last post lt is that you feel timed holds are more useful than heavy lifts?
For farmers walk IMO making it too grip intensive defeats the purpose because then your core/lower body/heart/lungs Don't get any workout, it is effectively the same as just standing in place pinching plates which is simpler to perform
Instead I might try holding the top position of a pinch grip deadlift for time, and also doing holds with levering
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grip strength vs wrist strength, you can have a plenty strong enough grip and still limp wrist a shot or visa verse locked wrists and loose grip. It does comes down to technic, a loose gripped and limp wrist shooter can learn to be consistent as long as they repeat the process exactly the same every time. it won't be very fast due to recoil recovery but consistent and accurate none the less. a semimauto may not cycle.
I've seen some old timers who have obviously lost allot of strength, and you see the gun throw them around, but they put them right where they need to go. They learned a technic that works for thier level of strength.
your best shooters ... practice ...
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you can have a plenty strong enough grip and still limp wrist a shot or visa verse locked wrists and loose grip.
No, you can't. You can't lock down your grip and have a loose wrist. They tighten together.
As to limp-wristing shots, limp-wristed shooters are limp-gripped shooters. They're shooting with a weak or relaxed grip.
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you can have a plenty strong enough grip and still limp wrist a shot or visa verse locked wrists and loose grip.
No, you can't. You can't lock down your grip and have a loose wrist. They tighten together.
As to limp-wristing shots, limp-wristed shooters are limp-gripped shooters. They're shooting with a weak or relaxed grip.
I agree with both of you, and here is why.
Something I noticed recently was that when I finally focused on my grip through the trigger breaking and releasing. Suddenly recoil was diminished a ton... I didn't limp wrist until the exact moment I pulled the trigger and my grip would lessen. My guess is that many shooters do this when they are new to pistol shooting. So, to limp wrist entirely I think someone with a strong grip potential would have to lessen their grip.
Now... I can lock my wrist and still move my fingers and also move my wrist while griping something. But those take some focus, and now that I have learned to focus and insure I am gripping through the trigger breaking and even through releasing the trigger I don't ever see my wrist go limp. Is it possible... sure... But I think for 95% of people they won't limp wrist if they have a solid group through the whole firing process.
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you can have a plenty strong enough grip and still limp wrist a shot or visa verse locked wrists and loose grip.
No, you can't. You can't lock down your grip and have a loose wrist. They tighten together.
As to limp-wristing shots, limp-wristed shooters are limp-gripped shooters. They're shooting with a weak or relaxed grip.
I didn't read Shadow2's post as "you can squeeze with all your might and still be limp wristing." My interpretation, and my observations are: All the strength in the world won't prevent someone from limp wristing a gun. Lots of newer shooters have no clue how hard they're supposed to grip the gun. They're perfectly capable, but they just don't grip tightly enough.
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I didn't read Shadow2's post as "you can squeeze with all your might and still be limp wristing."
You are misinterpreting. If it were a statement about grip strength in general, he wouldn't have added the second part of your quote:
or visa verse locked wrists and loose grip.
THAT second part makes clear that his statement was about act of gripping strong and being able to have a limp wrist while gripping strong, not the condition of having high grip strength in general, and that suggests that the locking of wrists and gripping are discrete operations, when in fact they are not. That is was I wanted to make clear. That is why I directly contradicted the statement.
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I'm confused. I can clinch my fist and move it around every which way. I can also lock my wrist and open and close my fingers. What am I missing here?
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I'm confused. I can clinch my fist and move it around every which way. I can also lock my wrist and open and close my fingers. What am I missing here?
Being able to clench your fist while moving your wrist isn't the same as a limp wrist though. You're just changing your contractions to allow for wrist movement.
What you can't do is lock your wrist without activating your forearm muscles which will inherently result in gripping.
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I'm confused. I can clinch my fist and move it around every which way. I can also lock my wrist and open and close my fingers. What am I missing here?
What Silverdragon said. ;)
You're describing voluntary movement of your wrist through muscle contraction. There's no actual slack or sloppiness in the wrist in that situation. That's YOU actively moving your wrist. You can't make a tight, hard fist in such a way, for example, where your wrist is relaxed, where someone else could grab your fist and bend you wrist around like it was limp. Your wrist is tight when your fist is tight. It takes active muscle contraction to move your wrist when your fist is tight.
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5# hammer, 9"handle, strong hand grip rotate arm slowly to raise and lower hammer head without changing the grip angle with the arm or wrist. Weak hand grip same. Tightens my forearm, so I ass u me it should increase the grip and forearm strength. ????? I also have an 8# hand weight if weight is better than reps.
If it helps, it's convenient and cheap.
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I can't remember what injury caused me to have physical therapy but I was shown the wrist rollup's at a physical therapy session. Take a dowel, tie a rope to it, and tie the other end to a weight (start small). Holding the dowel out in front of you roll up the weight all the way up and then all the way back down. I guarantee you will feel it in your forearms.
I've never had a grip strength issue as I did autoglass for 15 years. Holding knives, lifting glass, pumping adhesive (back in the day), etc really builds forearm strength. I did cut my flexor tendon once (controls tip of index finger) and as part of the physical therapy I was given a grip strength test. I shocked my therapist by pegging the grip strength tool he had with the uninjured hand and eventually almost maxed it out with the healed hand. Nothing like manual labor to build old man strength.
Cheers,
Toby
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How about grip strengthening with a Shake weight?
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To kill some time, I'm making a CZ "CUSTOM" TUNED grip strengthener. This will be a limited edition not available to the public....even if it works. More to come ....maybe. O0
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That is why I don't love gyms. One of my friends nearly died when he lifted something heavy at our local Gym. If you want to keep yourself fit, CrossFit is the best and safest thing to do for you. I have practiced CrossFit for more than one year, and I lost about 20 lbs this year. Also, I bought a smart scale from https://www.vont.com/product/smart-scale-bathroom-scale-weight-scale/ (https://www.vont.com/product/smart-scale-bathroom-scale-weight-scale/) to track my daily progress. It is a useful tool if you want to lose weight; check it out by yourself.
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Definitely gonna give that a try.
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Great post and contributions by all!
I have gained a lot of control and ability to handle larger calibers more accurately by listening and watching videos by Jerry and Lena Miculek and doing their recommended training. One thing I didn't see in this thread is how Lena Miculek recommends to transfer recoil movement linearly to the rear while minimizing upward movement by pointing your elbows out. It takes a lot of training and while doing so you will feel the muscles that need exercising. There's a reason why she's considered the best woman shooter in the world.