The Original CZ Forum
GENERAL => Ammunition, questions, and handloading techniques => Topic started by: clarkgriswald23 on March 25, 2018, 08:05:28 PM
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I've been reloading bullets for about 2 years now, just to get my feet wet I ordered a lee precision pro 1000 for 9mm as a cheap way to find out if the process was for me. I thoroughly enjoy the process and reward for my work. That being said I'm looking to upgrade. I only load 9mm, so I'm considering a few different presses that are in my budget. Forster single stage, hornady single stage, and the Dillon square deal B. I don't comp shoot I'm more of just a plinker that would like to build accurate reliable loads. The lee is what it is for the price. But I'm looking for a bit of an upgrade. Just asking for some insight on what you guys think would be a step in the right direction. Thanks.
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RCBS Rockchucker?
I like mine. Built like a tank.
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Dillon sdb
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There is almost nothing a Rockchucker won't do when it comes to reloading, and every bench should have a single stage press bolted to it, no matter what the main "production" press is.
The SDB takes proprietary dies, if I remember correctly....
Hope this helps.
Fred
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You've not given us enough information to make a good decision. We need to know about your shooting volumes and where you'd like to go with it. Would you like to start shooting IPSC or IDPA next year ? Will your volumes go down in the future due to a growing family ? Will your volumes go up in 2 years when you retire, move to a 7 acre lot in the country, and build your own shooting range ?
Read this... http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=58939.0
Especially Reply #3 about Equipment.
Hope this helps. ;)
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Well my family is at full capacity, and at this point work dictates the amount of shooting I can do. Which I plan to take plenty of time to go shooting this year. I do not plan to do any type of comp shooting until I have some kind of ah ha moment. I've been a rifle guy for some time and do well with rifles. I am focused on becoming a much more proficient with a pistol, all of which are 9mm. Hope this helps you better inform me on one way or the other. Also I don't have the type of money to buy a production type press and a single stage press. I would at some point like to own both either way. Thanks.
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I've seen a number of threads recently in other subforums here where someone asks a question, and people respond before I get the chance to: "We need more information. What's your intended use?" I like to think that started in here in this subforum. ;D
Anyway, the biggest detractor to the Square Deal in my eyes is the proprietary dies. You'll never use those dies on any other press, which means if you ever want to upgrade from it to a 550, 650, or 1050, or LnL or ANYTHING else, you'll need new dies. It also means that you will be limited to exactly what Dillon sells, and won't have the option to buy dies from other manufacturers. For me, both of those things are deal-breakers. It's not a bad press, but I wouldn't buy one.
I have a Forster Co-Ax. Awesome press, possibly the best singe stage made, but overkill for anything you would be doing with 9mm. It's better suited to precision long range rifle, and $325 is an expensive bit of overkill.
Rockchucker is a good press, but without knowing what your shooting life is like, it's hard to recommend.
Also, what is the Lee NOT doing well that you would like it to do?
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How many rounds per month do you expect to shoot?
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Honestly the lee pro 1000 just seems a bit sloppy, and sticky if that makes sense. The priming step is never consistent, sometimes I get a primer that slips off to the side, ads 2 primers in the prime position, puts primers in sideways. My main complaint is the primer stage. Also the lee pro is limited to using only cci and Winchester primers.
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Gotcha.
So... about how many rounds per month do you expect to shoot? ;)
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Between my wife and I probably 1500 rounds per month and maybe produce another 500 rds per month as stock until I feel I have an amount I'm happy with. Thanks.
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Between my wife and I probably 1500 rounds per month and maybe produce another 500 rds per month as stock until I feel I have an amount I'm happy with. Thanks.
At 18,000+ rounds a year, you can't afford NOT to go with a real progressive press with a case feeder. I am shooting around 5,000 a year and can't fathom going back to a single stage for pistol work.
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What would you suggest as a good progressive press in the $450 range? This is why as a good progressive I landed on the Dillon square deal B. I don't have $1800 to spend on a high end reloader. I'm just a carpenter that loves to shoot lol.
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Just from what I'm gathering here, I'm assuming that it's safe to say that a progressive reloader is going to be the direction I want to go? Which would bring me to the question, is the square deal B the right choice for my $450 ish budget? And is it a reliable consistent machine? The lee precision is finicky and I feel like I spend as much time checking the work of the machine as I do actually making ammo.
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The Hornady LNL AP is on sale at Midway for $413 right now (and you get 500 free Hornady bullets). You can add the case feeder down the road (and the bullet feeder). It's a 5 station press, instead of a 4 station like the SDB. It also uses standard dies, which the SDB doesn't.
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May I advise you to look at the Hornady LnL? Without case and bullet feeder you still will be able to produce 200-300 quality rounds per hour and its flexible enough to change dies and load different caliber as needed. I spend a few evenings after work at the press and able to produce enough ammo for a couple of months. 500-600 rounds in one evening seating including gauging, boxing and labeling. My 9mm shooting volume about 5-6k a year.
You can upgrade to case and bullet feeders later, but most likely you will be happy as is. Its also close to your budget even with some upgrades.
Its not perfect, but very close to perfection. There are few tricks to make it even better and they are well illustrated on the youtube and forums.
Single stage or turret press is very desirable as a second press for small testing batches or one off operations. I use Lee Classic Turret press for it. You may reconfigure your Lee pro 1000 and re-purpose it for that function.
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From the digging I've done hornady seems to fall a bit short on the progressive end.
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If you're talking about internet lore, you get the advice you pay for.....
I've got a couple hundred thousand rounds loaded on my LnL, and it's still going strong. The biggest complaint with any progressive press is the priming, and it doesn't matter the brand. I've had two of the Dillon 550B's, and sold them both, simply because they didn't fulfill my needs. I kept the LnL, but I don't prime on any progressive press. When I load any of the 32 calibers I now load, it's with sized, prepped and primed brass, even on the progressives. Life's just much easier that way.
Hope this helps.
Fred
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I don't have experience with Dillon, just a preface.
That said, I'm very happy with my Hornady LNL. It upped my output considerably over the Lee Turret. The press did need some tweaking to get running smoothly but now it runs like a champ. Everything I've done was mostly "free", just my time.
Chronicled here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=87455.msg657093#msg657093
IDescribe discussed the two LNL vs 650 here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=66260.0
Good luck!
Cheers,
Toby
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I've entertained going progressive at different times but I just can't justify it with they way I prep cases. I tumble clean from the range, decap and size then send them through a polish tumble, clean ALL the primer pockets before case mouth expanding and priming then finally loading.
My Lyman T-Mag has served me well for the lat 20 years.
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I was stoked to upgrade to a 650xl from a LnL AP.
I?d strongly suggest doing the 650 - once a case feeder and caliber change is considered the price is nearly the same between the lnl and the 650.
The difference is the 650 was designed for a case feeder, it?s an afterthought on the LnL.
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Between my wife and I probably 1500 rounds per month and maybe produce another 500 rds per month as stock until I feel I have an amount I'm happy with. Thanks.
At 18,000+ rounds a year, you can't afford NOT to go with a real progressive press with a case feeder. I am shooting around 5,000 a year and can't fathom going back to a single stage for pistol work.
I have to agree with James. At 1500 rounds/month I wouldn't use, or recommend, a single stage of any brand, even though I like my Rockchucker.
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I can't speak to other presses, but FWIW, I have a Dillon SDB and have been very happy with it. It was my first and only press and the one I learned to reload on. As IDescribe says, the dies are proprietary, so you can't use them on another press if you ever decide to upgrade to a Dillon 550 or 650. On the other hand, the proprietary dies make it very easy to set up and operate. You don't need to worry about what set of dies to buy and how to set them up with your press -- you can just do the initial set up and get going.
Once you know how to operate it, the SDB will easily crank out 200 rounds in an hour. I've got a link to a couple of SDB videos at the bottom of the first page in my reloading log here: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=82725.0
Highly recommend you watch the Power Factor show episode on reloading with the SDB -- gives a very good overview of operating the press.
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If you have more time than money and priming is your main concern, consider just getting a hand priming unit for $40. With loading 1500 a month I couldn't imagine doing that on a single. The time you will save on a progressive will equal more than enough money for a good progressive. As has been said the priming system is going to be the pain point for any progressive, I'm running a 650 without a case feeder and loving it! buy a better press now and case feeder later.
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You might want to consider this sage advice: buy once, cry once. OR as my dear old dad used to tell me: "If it's worth buying, it's worth paying for what you want the first time."
Dillon SDB -- $425
Hornady LnL -- $400.
Hornady LnL Case-feeder -- $300.
Dillon 650 -- $600.
We pay hundreds of dollars for unnecessary frills on cars that we'll sell in 5-10 years. This is something you plan on using for decades. Buy what you want the first time. Or in this case, the 2nd time. ;)
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You might want to consider this sage advice: buy once, cry once. OR as my dear old dad used to tell me: "If it's worth buying, it's worth paying for what you want the first time."
Dillon SDB -- $425
Hornady LnL -- $400.
Hornady LnL Case-feeder -- $300.
Dillon 650 -- $600.
We pay hundreds of dollars for unnecessary frills on cars that we'll sell in 5-10 years. This is something you plan on using for decades. Buy what you want the first time. Or in this case, the 2nd time. ;)
My dear old dad always said..."cheap is expensive, and expensive is cheap."
Don't ever buy a price. ;)
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Honestly the lee pro 1000 just seems a bit sloppy, and sticky if that makes sense. The priming step is never consistent, sometimes I get a primer that slips off to the side, ads 2 primers in the prime position, puts primers in sideways. My main complaint is the primer stage. Also the lee pro is limited to using only cci and Winchester primers.
If you had asked here, that's exactly the warnings I would have issued about the Pro-1000. They simply take a lot of fiddling... even when loading only one caliber.
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What would you suggest as a good progressive press in the $450 range?
Yes. Buy Scarlet Pistol's old LNL !! ;D
This is why as a good progressive I landed on the Dillon Square Deal B.
The SDB is a good machine and a good fit for your single caliber needs. However, it doesn't set you up for any type of future expansion. For the meager price difference you'd be better advised to get (even a used) a LNL or 550B. That way if you pick up a 30-30 one day to put some deer on the table, then you're not shut out.
I don't have $1800 to spend on a high end reloader.
Neither do I, which is why I bought a Dillon XL650. The whole deal (not counting dies), set up for 8 calibers with a case feeder was right at $1000. For your needs it would be $589 becasue you'd still use your current dies, scale, caliper and manuals. You wouldn't need the bullet feeder becasue you got kids to do that.
I'm just a carpenter that loves to shoot lol.
I know a good Jewish carpenter.
Hope this helps. ;)
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I was actually about to reply and then Wobbly replied. Haha if you?re up for the little things that Baldrage mentioned you can snag an LNL. Having just got a a 650 and coming from an LNL I would suggest the 650.
As everyone has said, with the volume you shoot it would be worth saving and getting a progressive. I had the Hornady bullet feeder die and just used tubes I got from a fish supply store to fill with bullets. I?d recommend that and you can get a case feeder later. You can use extra tubes filled with cases.
For reals though!!! Think of all the time you spend reloading those 1,800 rounds every month. If you can pick up extra work and get the 650 with a case feeder and the bullet feeder die you?ll do 800 to 1,000 rounds an hour. How many labor hours does that free up coming from a single stage press? That would be your opportunity cost. The cost of the thing you didn?t get to do. Your opportunity cost in time spent doing some extra work would easily be covered with how much you shoot.
With the case feeder and 4 extra primer tubes I spent $881 including shipping. But that case feeder was a good little chunk of change. BUT I?ll load a lot more rounds now, especially with the bullet feeder die. I should have done this a long time ago!!!
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ALso, with the 650, because the complex part of the case-feeder is already in place, you can make your own case-feeder for about $40.
Shhhh... don't tell Scarlett Pistol. ;)
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I forgot about the 550. Same price as an LnL. If you're shy of the LnL priming system, the 550 would be a solid choice. It's not as automated as the 650 or LnL, AND it's only a 4-station press, not 5, but it's mostly a progressive. It's a manually indexed progressive, which can also be used as a single stage.
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ALso, with the 650, because the complex part of the case-feeder is already in place, you can make your own case-feeder for about $40.
Shhhh... don't tell Scarlett Pistol. ;)
Haha this is a true fact. Hornady does NOT offer the parts to just have the case feeder without the machine feeding them.
That?s ok... after running mine a bit today while I was setting up I have no regrets in buying the total case feeder. But I?m even more bummed about my time spent on the LNL.
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Recently purchased a pre-owned LNL Ammo Plant with a ton of extras (shell plates, dies, LED lighting, deluxe monitoring, second powder measure, etc.). All the typical massaging/adjustments done by the original owner.
Craigslist= $460. Easily over $1k worth of equipment.
Why go new when there are people getting out of the hobby? M2?
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I forgot about the 550. Same price as an LnL. If you're shy of the LnL priming system, the 550 would be a solid choice. It's not as automated as the 650 or LnL, AND it's only a 4-station press, not 5, but it's mostly a progressive. It's a manually indexed progressive, which can also be used as a single stage.
Well, actually if you REALLY wanted to low ball the thing...
? Dillon offers the RL550 in a build-as-you-go model called the BL550 for $288. You'd also need a "9mm Caliber Conversion Kit" and a "550 Primer Feed Assy" which would get you up to about $350. But you would use your Lee 9mm Dies and Lee Powder Measure with this machine. That's if you insist on new product.
? But Double-D makes an excellent point. These machines move so slowly that mechanically wearing one out is almost impossible, even with zero maintenance. And too, with the extreme drop in ammo prices, a lot of fair-weather reloaders are selling their equipment right now. You'd do well to keep an eye on CraigsList and see what you can find locally... LNL, 550, or 650. They are all good machines and will serve you faithfully.
;)
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If thinking about a Dillon 550, this ebay Seller has the Dillon 550 with 9mm Conversion for $490 shipped: Dillon 550 at Red's Trading Post (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dillon-Precision-RL550-9mm-Progressive-Reloading-Machine-4-Stage-Manual-Index/121847584570?epid=1001583673&) I just bought the same press, but with the 40 S&W conversion kit and bought the locator pins for 9mm as I load both and they share a shellplate. Prompt shipping and everything needed to set up the 550 except dies which I already had.
I didn't use the Dillon powder measure that came with the press as I have RCBS Uniflows with Case Activated linkage and Micrometer Adjusters for all my pistol calibers along with Redding Competition dies. Both work great on the 550.
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Thank you all for taking time and giving me tons of information and respected opinions. I'm glad I put the thread up you have all been very helpful!
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If thinking about a Dillon 550, this ebay Seller has the Dillon 550 with 9mm Conversion for $490 shipped: Dillon 550 at Red's Trading Post (https://www.ebay.com/itm/Dillon-Precision-RL550-9mm-Progressive-Reloading-Machine-4-Stage-Manual-Index/121847584570?epid=1001583673&) I just bought the same press, but with the 40 S&W conversion kit....
Red's Trading Post is where I got my 650, and several sets of Dillon and Hornady dies over the years. They are a legit, long time Ebay seller.
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Agreed. Great service and good pricing too. Every other Seller on ebay wants $60 or more for shipping. I know Dillon sells direct too, but Red's had everything I needed.
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If your military or Leo, call dillon and set up an account. You?ll save 10% on phone in orders.
That really helped when I bought the 1050.
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I have the Dillon 550B. Great press and a huge upgrade from the Lee Turret press I had before. I load 9mm and .40. I have a complete setup for each caliber. The Dillon powder measure is light years better then the Lee disk measure.
Its super easy to change calibers. I also use lee dies I had left over from the old press and am used to using.
A big plus for the 550 over the square deal is that you can load rifle if you want on the 550.
Hope that helps!