Author Topic: does ammo brand affect accuracy?  (Read 1581 times)

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« on: July 30, 2002, 08:06:31 PM »
Hi Gents:
I was wondering something about ammo. I was thinking that since my CZ75 was tested at the factory using the Sellier Bellot, as indicated on the "hit pattern data chart", should I be expecting their ammo to be the best for the sight adjustment they made at that time?
My rear sight was obviously adjusted somewhat, it's off center, but has a reference mark which is lined up with another mark made in the slide.
It's really not too important, because I will probably be using that ammo for price considerations, but I was thinking perhaps there are 2 reasons for using it.
I shot some PMP, and Wolf ammo on Sunday, and everything worked. For kicks we shot 50 yards away, later 25. I was using up my friend's wolf, I won't buy any. My 2 companions both want CZ75s now. Shooting my friend's new 357sig Glock I couldn't hit a barn door. (I guess he didn't either). Case closed about "more power": the Glock would probably be more "scary sounding" to a potential attacker, while the CZ would be wounding him. When I cleaned the CZ, the glock guy admired the barrel rifling, the slide design, etc, and finally picked it up. Minutes later, we went online and he saw the CZ-USA "hot summer special" They will be buying 2 of them. CZs sell themselves.

Offline SACamp

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #1 on: July 30, 2002, 10:27:49 PM »
Hello.  Visually similar ammunition in the same weight and bullet style may vary little or none or it can show big differences in one's handgun.  While they shoot the same weight bullets often at about the same velocities, seldom are the same powders, cases, and bullets used.  In other words, there are variables in there that affect the gun/ammunition's accuracy potential.

You just have to shoot different brands and bullet weights to find out what YOUR pistol "likes."



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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2002, 07:38:19 AM »
Correct. experimentation is the key to good accurACY.

Grips, Sights, ect.

Sometimes you get surprising results.

With my 75SA .40  i shot Speer 155 gr JHPs handloads.
SAme as in my cz40B..which were very accurate for the
given pistol.

However, in the MMC'd 75SA.the 180 grain FMJ Wolf.40 outperformed the hotter JHPs.

My Cor-bons out of my G26,,seem less erratic than out of a
'75. You just never know.My '75s also like the NGA 9mm +P, as does my CZ-100..that really shines with this hi-
stepping load.

Again,, the variables are there. Choose Reliability over
pin-point accuracy..except for target shooting.

Since i tend to double-tap with a pistol. Any group
of 3-5 inches is acceptable for me @ 25 yards.

Combat Accuracy is what you need to strive for in a defensive arm. At 15 yards or closer i like tighter groups
or 'snake-eyes'  & trying to get them in rapid-fire is always
a challenge.

I'll add that the Winchester Silvertip was the most accurate load in the 75SA:9mm 0.5 inches from the
bench in HANDGUNS testing.

One would probably think Hydra-Shoks or Cor-Bons....
and not the Silvertip for an accuracy load.

Good luck with your CZ. Hope your buddies are happy also.

Offline ut83

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #3 on: August 01, 2002, 05:18:44 PM »
You bet ammo affects accuracy.  There is no science to it either.  Some ammo of the same make and model will run more accurate than the box you shot last week.  Some isnt as accurate as a rule....UMC/PMC is usually the last Ill buy as it hasnt shot that well/accurate in my experience.  S&B is pretty good ammo...but IMO there are better bullets.
For good solid accuracy..Shoot Federal, Gold Dots..etc.  They will be more consistant than the bargain ammo and usually be cleaner in the process.  You have to play with a gun and find what it likes...literally.
S&B is the test bullet from the CZ Factory because they are in cahoots..:D   The factories arent too far from each other as I understand it and have a "deal" worked out for test buwwets.
They make and test alot of guns...Id probably get a deal on ammo too.
Shoot well

Offline beammeupscotty

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2002, 07:31:19 PM »
Come on ut83, I wouldn't exactly call Sellier and Bellot and CZ in cahoots. They are both Czech after all.  If an American firearms mfg. uses an American ammo mfg.  I doubt you would call them in cahoots.  There probably isn't any other mfg of ammo in the whole country.  I has to be more cost effective to use ammo from a domestic factory that is just down the road.  Cahoots implies consipiricy, and I doubt that is CZs motive.  

In my own semi-informed opinion, for casual target shooting at the distances many people shoot at (i.e. 15 yards or less) I doubt that in a blind test one would be able to detect any appreciable difference between major ammo mfgs.  Target shooting and greater distances are a different matter.  Differences between ammo will become much more apparent at 50 yards, I promise you.

Offline ut83

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2002, 08:12:04 PM »
Ok...I may have spoken out of context (sound like a politician..scarey :eek  )  Cahoots may be incorrect.  
I didnt mean to send the "conspiracy" message bad.

Your correct on the other point as most guns the difference in accuracy may not be that much.  We bench tested my little 83 and shot lots o bullets thru it.  Thats what surprised least favorite defensive load, Win. Silvertips
shot a 1.900" group at 25 yds, 5 round test.  Others were not even that close...some shot bigger than 3" and did it consistantly.
Another example is my SP101...2 1/4" barrel 357 Mag with a CTC Laser grip...with Federal 125gr JHP's it will group 5/8" at 10 yds offhand...5rnds.  Its easy to do this with the laser...point and shoot.  Many loads I try thru this gun are not only not as accurate as the Fed in regards to POA/POI but some seem to hit where ever they feel like it.  I shot Fiocchi 357 142gr JSP's and they would not group.

I am not a great shot...but Ive seen circumstances that have proven to me some bullets are more accurate than others.
The first test with the ransum rest is the best example because it takes the shooter out of the equation.  Just bullets and results.
The second is pretty fair as the POA is a red dot and is not to hard to duplicate consistantly.

If I shoot offhand at 10-25 yds I would be hard pressed to tell any difference with many good factory loads.  

Shoot well

Offline MLRS

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2002, 01:24:42 PM »

My Beretta 92 Brigadier was very ammo picky.
I would get excellent accuracy out of these brands:

Speer Lawman

I would average about 2"-2.5" groups at 25 meters.


Would give me about 2.5"-3" groups at 25 meters.

Winchester White Box(range packs)
Federal Eagle
Mag Tech
Other various brands

Would give me very erratic groups.  This irrated me to no ends and is why I sold my Brigadier.  My other 92's are not picky like that.


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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #7 on: August 04, 2002, 12:48:46 AM »
I have found Federal's 9BP JHP to be very accurate. It also has a good rep for reliability (I've had no problems) and has a good rep in police service as a duty load. It's also fairly inexpensive, $16 for 50 at Wal Mart.



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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #8 on: August 04, 2002, 04:44:26 AM »
Ammo accuracy tends to be an individual-gun specific thing.

You need to do as MLRS has done, and see what works for the individual gun.  

Just because something works in YOUR gun doesn't mean it will do the same for mine, even though there is only one serial number digit difference.    (A pair of guns that came down the assembly line together won't necessarily shoot the same with the same ammo.)

One of the reasons I got rid of my [Italian-made] Beretta 96, which was a beautiful gun, was that I couldn't find any ammo that it really liked, except FIOCCHI...  It shot that beautifully.

That said, most guns, if they'll feed the round properly, seem to like the premium Golden Sabers and Silvertips (and similar self-defense rounds), and tend to shoot them with better accuracy than FMJ rounds.   But even that can't be stated as a general rule.

Offline ut83

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #9 on: August 04, 2002, 08:04:08 AM »
Excellent point Walt.
Ill generalize with this statement.  In most guns, an average shooter wont see a big difference from one good ammo maker to the next...including me under normal range shooting.  With this being said...some guns are very picky and you have to learn on a maker/model of ammo basis with guns like this.
You literally have to shoot different rounds until you find a load your gun and you shoot well. as hell- double yes :D
Also..Ill add this.  In all of the testing Ive seen, done and read about.  Silvertips and most Proloads tend to be the most accurate in most guns as Ive seen and experienced.
Shoot well

Offline Radom

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does ammo brand affect accuracy?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2002, 10:57:29 PM »
Hey guys, back from the dead.  My computer (a.k.a. "Soul Brother #1") picked up a nasty virus from the Firing Line, so I have been down a while.  (This was not that forum's fault by the way.)

You bet your sweet bippy ammo affects accuracy.  The other side of the coin is that most handgun ammo is more accurate than the shooter!  As others have noted there are quite a few variables at issue here, but it is mostly a trial and error process.  I have not shot NEARLY enough rounds through my CZs to make any pronouncements, but here goes...  (Some of this reflects reloading concerns, bear with me...)

1) My 75B Mil and 75B SA (both 9mm of course) like the same ammo.  The SA is more accurate, but these guns have the same "tendencies" with the same ammo.  I am a fairly new shooter, so this data may be skewed as well.  I suspect that my bad habits make them more similar than the manufacturing process!

2) In general, Speer, Starline, Winchester, Norma, and Lapua brass seem to be more consistent, last longer, and have more uniform primer pockets/flash holes.  Sellier & Bellot brass rates fairly high in my personal pecking order, but the flash holes/primer pockets knocks S&B out of the top echelon.  As a reloader, this is not a problem for subsequent loadings, but the initial S&B factory load suffers from this problem (at least in theory).  

3) Powder is difficult for us to evaluate.  Obviously, some loads are cleaner than others, etc.  The problem arises in that the powders used in factory handgun ammo are not of "cannisterized" quality.  That is, a particular ammo lot should all have the same powder lot, but the powder lot will vary somewhat over time.  For example, all Winchester USA 115 gr 9mm will not have the exact same charge weight of propellant.  As the powder lot varies, so does charge weight/volumetric density.  

Virtually all ammo that I have ever disassembled had a consistent charge weight within the same lot of ammunition (at most 0.1 gr variance).  The notable exception was some Wolf 7.62x39 (not handgun ammo).  I bought a half case of Wolf SP, mostly because Barnaul 7.62x39 SP is so darn good!  I had trouble getting a recognizable group at 100m (despite the fact that my SAR-1 is pretty accurate), so I pulled a few bullets to see what was up.  Assuming I was correct, the charge weights varied as much as 0.4 grains.  I have subsequently tried this with other Wolf ammo, and I have never seen this type of variance (at most 0.2 gr in some 9x18 handgun ammo).  

I would caution anyone from jumping to the conclusion that Russian ammo is not good ammo (at least for this reason).  Obviously Tula, Novosibirsk, Barnaul, Ulyanovsk, etc.  have HUGE stockpiles of powder.  I cannot say that they always follow American conventions of ammo assembly.  It would not shock me if the Russians used up odd lots of powder when possible.  However, caveat emptor...

4) It seems obvious that bullet design SHOULD affect accuracy in handgun ammo.  In practice, this is dificult to observe without extensive testing.  In general, the heavy bullet weights for a particular caliber seem to suffer when an exotic bullet style is used.  I would guess that bullet style/quality control is not a major factor at typical handgun distances, assuming certain minimum standards.  In my reloading endeavors, I have noticed better results with Hornady, Sierra, and Nosler premium bullets.  Since I tend to take exceptional care when loading expensive bullets, this may be skewed as well.  

5) Some thoughts on S&B:  Sellier & Bellot 9mm 115 gr FMJ may be the best bargain on the market for the CZ shooter.  (I would also say this for anyone who shoots a lot of 9mm).  Some S&B handgun ammo is not up to the same standard.  For example, the S&B .45 230 gr FMJ load has fairly uneven flash holes.  (This may not sound significant until one considers the case capcity of .45 ACP).  

Are S&B and CZ in "cahoots"?  Well, yes.  This isn't exactly unusual in the arms business.  (Winchester? Remington?)  In the case of the various Czech firms, the former command/administrative system of resource allocation, production planning, etc. meant that CZ-UB, Brno, S&B, etc. were all under the same planning commisariat/management group.  In other words, these enterprises were conceived as integral pieces of the overall Czech military industrial complex.  Even now as independent businesses, I am certain that they tend to encourage their former ties.  

Hope this helps.  I would have to say that S&B, PMP, IMI, and Winchester USA are awfully good for 9mm practice.  These brands are very consistent for the price.  Remington UMC may be good as well, but I have stayed away from it after getting some bad .45 about a year ago.  In .45, the list is pretty similar, but .45 is such a reloading proposition that I don't have much experience with cheap .45 (because it isn't cheap at all).  

Although not exactly "bargain" ammo, I tend to have my best results with Speer Lawman and Gold Dot factory ammo in my CZs (both 9mm and .45).  The Speer offerings (although I can't say much about Blazer) tend to follow a different price structure/marketing concept from Federal, Winchester, and Remington.  In practice, I have found that paying slightly more for Speer means a dramatic increase in quality (plus the bonus of the reloadable Speer brass).
The artist formerly known as FEG...