Thoughts on the old CZ75 "tough metal" legend

[Karen]

do you know what company made the spanish frames? Maybe Beretta or Tanfoglio?

[CM Rich]

According to CZ, the company was ALFA, S.A., of Eibar, Spain.

And, as I checked up on that, the Spanish cast frames lasted all the way until 1982-83. That was when CZ's own investment casting facility was ready to go.

So, I'd be leery of 1980-83 marked guns. I know there's going to be some owners of these guns here on this forum that will debat me on this, and they have the right to do so if they've never had a problem with their guns before. However, CZ, through the "Legend" book, pretty much tells us the same thing. Take that for what you will.

[Karen]

so were ALL of the CZ frames from 1980-83 period made in Spain? Meaning, was CZ still making frames at the same time the Spanish Co. was?

[CM Rich]

That's what CZ is implying through their book. They only mention they were doing investment casting of slides and triggers at the time of the Spanish contract, so that indicates, to me, that ALFA was handling all of the frames for the CZ 75.

[Doubs43]

Two things: First, it would appear that CZ didn't serial the CZ-75 pistols consecutively. My commercial, highly polished blued 1981 CZ-75 is in the low 38,000 serial number range. Adding the guns produced from 1977 through 1981 totals only 36,697. Did CZ skip a block of numbers or are the figures given incorrect?

Secondly, I have no idea if my frame is Spanish or Czech but you may be assured of one thing: It met CZ specs or it wasn't used. I've put many thousands of rounds - mostly cast bullet reloads - through mine since I bought it new in England and if there is any wear to slide or frame, I can't detect it. Except for minor edge wear on the finish (VERY minor) the pistol is still 99%. Spanish guns gained a horrible reputation for improperly hardened steel back in the 1920's when many thousands of poorly made guns were turned out. Fairly or unfairly, the reputation has lingered and is often repeated as fact where new Spanish guns are concerned. Anyone who owns a Star or Astra pistol or AyA shotgun knows that modern Spanish guns are well made and properly hardened.

My 1981 CZ came back to the States with me in 1987 before they could be imported for commercial sale so it's not import marked. The last three digits of the serial number were electro-pencil etched on the two magazines which have a parkerized finish. The CZ-75B I bought yesterday has two blued mags that are unmarked. I plan on doing a photo comparison of the two in the near future to show the changes that have been made. There are more than I had imagined at first.

[earthtone55]

For Karen, both Beretta and Tanfoglio are Italian companies; they couldn't have made "Spanish" frames.

Much as I love legends about unbreakable swords dredged from the bottom of a lake (or in this case urban myths about extra-tough steel in romanticized guns from obscure locations), frankly, I can't give them much stock. 

Its fair to say that there have been more than a few types of pistols manufactured around the globe over the years.  Why should anyone believe that somehow Commie-Bloc CZ managed to come up with a unique and unprecedently strong steel alloy not seen before or since?

If they did. . .why aren't they using it anymore?  One can imagine all sorts of reasons why tougher steels could be useful in various applications. If this special alloy existed, there would be good reasons to use it in other guns or products.

I'm not really interested in detail-stripping my pre-B to listen for the "glass" like sound, but even stipulating for the sake of argument that a naked CZ frame does make a sound like that on tapping, I don't think you can draw  *ANY* conclusions about the strength of the pistol from that sound!

It probably has more to do with the SHAPE of the frame, than its composition or intrinsic tensile strength. 

[Radom]

My understanding, based on the "Birth of Legend" book and Czech-language sources, is that some of the earliest short-rail frames were forged and milled, as CZ-UB did not have adequate investment casting facilities until later.  The problem was not that "super-steel" was hard on the equipment, but that investment casting would make the product line profitable.  The Spanish frames were a "symptom" of some of the problems that CZ-UB had in getting their investment casting process up and running on such a large scale.  Most of the milled frames would have never been available for sale, as they were prototypes or demonstration models (i.e. one of the first 72 produced from the list CM Rich provided below). 

[Clausewitz]

The numbering issue is indeed strange. 



 

[M1A4ME]

Tough?  I'd agree with that.  Stand up to hard use?  I'd agree with that, too.

My Pre B CZ85 had a light brown dust packed under the grips, around the grips screws and the oil/grease inside was gritty as can be.  Middle eastern dust.  The pistol was sold as an Israeli surplus gun.

This happened at the range a couple trips back.  The gun went bang (4th or 5th shot) several times and then didn't.  When I changed focus to the gun I could see the slide wasn't completely forward.  When I racked the slide to clear what I thought was failure to feed this fell out and the slide still didn't go into battery.



The rest of the case was left in the barrel.



I had to take the barrel out to get the rest of the case out of the chamber/barrel.



The only evidence inside the pistol was some extra "crud/residue" from the burnt powder/gas that was released when the case head separated from the case walls.

Tough as a tank.  And mine isn't made from the extra special steel.  Imagine how tough those are.

[SPO1SHADOW]

I don't know what kind of steel they are made out of but I can tell you that the steel is tougher than woodpecker lips and is a pleasure to machine and work with. I have had them come through here that were so used and abused I would have bet my house there were some cracks in the frame or slide. They passed the crack test with flying colors. When I was in the bowling pin shooting game during Second Chance's big run back in the day, I could not get 15k out of a Colt frame on a bet. These things seem to be indestructible in comparison.

[Clausewitz]

According to CZ there were 54 guns made in 1975 and 18 made in 1976.

In 1977 2,000 guns were made, marking the start of production.

From this production information I have to assume that the 54 1975 guns began with serial number 01001, possibly making my gun above the second production CZ75.

My lowest serial CZ75, other than this one, is a 1977 #11692.

So, how did the serial numbers get from 01002 in 1975 to 11692 at some point in 1977, when officially only 2,072 guns were made during that time period?

[vidiot]

According to CZ there were 54 guns made in 1975 and 18 made in 1976.

In 1977 2,000 guns were made, marking the start of production.

From this production information I have to assume that the 54 1975 guns began with serial number 01001, possibly making my gun above the second production CZ75.

My lowest serial CZ75, other than this one, is a 1977 #11692.

So, how did the serial numbers get from 01002 in 1975 to 11692 at some point in 1977, when officially only 2,072 guns were made during that time period?

I also wonder this however I am more interested in how you ended up with the second gun ever made. I thought those first 50 guns went mostly to foreign officials. Just curious what country you're in? You got any history on that 01002 you got?

[Clausewitz]

I don't have any juicy, Red October history on the pistol for you, sorry.  Who knows how this Capt Ramius was able to defect. 

Do you agree based on the serial number evidence that it is very likely the second CZ75 produced?

The number ranges are pretty wacky.  It simply doesn't seem possible that 1001 guns were made in 1975 before this one.

[vidiot]

I don't have any juicy, Red October history on the pistol for you, sorry.  Who knows how this Capt Ramius was able to defect. 

Do you agree based on the serial number evidence that it is very likely the second CZ75 produced?

The number ranges are pretty wacky.  It simply doesn't seem possible that 1001 guns were made in 1975 before this one.

Looking at this youtube video where this guy tours the CZ factory they show him the first gun off the line and it's number is 00001. She says it was made in 1975 but there are some small differences like the grips and the hammer shape. I'm thinking the first production guns for distributions made in 1975 started with 10001. So in that sense yours would be #2.
https://youtu.be/t5xmDEIQ9RA?t=2m36s

 I was just hoping you could share how it came into your possession? I'm in the US and I have a 1977 model and a 1978 model both found on gunbroker before the prices went insane. I love the history of these pistols.

[Clausewitz]

I don't have any juicy, Red October history on the pistol for you, sorry.  Who knows how this Capt Ramius was able to defect. 

Do you agree based on the serial number evidence that it is very likely the second CZ75 produced?

The number ranges are pretty wacky.  It simply doesn't seem possible that 1001 guns were made in 1975 before this one.

Looking at this youtube video where this guy tours the CZ factory they show him the first gun off the line and it's number is 00001. She says it was made in 1975 but there are some small differences like the grips and the hammer shape. I'm thinking the first production guns for distributions made in 1975 started with 10001. So in that sense yours would be #2.
https://youtu.be/t5xmDEIQ9RA?t=2m36s

 I was just hoping you could share how it came into your possession? I'm in the US and I have a 1977 model and a 1978 model both found on gunbroker before the prices went insane. I love the history of these pistols.

So the first gun off the line was 00001.  It was made simply to be the first and to be hung on a wall at the company.

Then the first run of 54 guns was made, starting with 01001 to 01054?

I imagine the number ranges were purposely embellished to bolster the image?   

If so, it would be interesting to know the system used.  My 1977 is 11692.  That would be quite a few guns in 1977 to get to 11692.