Author Topic: A tale of two AT-84's  (Read 3915 times)

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Offline Southern Forester

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A tale of two AT-84's
« on: July 06, 2009, 02:37:11 PM »
Conventional wisdom is that the AT-84 is a Tanfoglio-based pistol.  That is fairly easy to accept.  After all, the safety on many allows hammer down on safe like any other Tanfoglio-based pistol.  Also, the frames seem to lack the front lightening cuts as well as include the same gripping serrations on the front and back straps just like Tanfoglios.  Now, they do include the CZ-style mag brakes while having the more CZ-style slide profile (without rails extending to the front).  But, a look at the frame reveals a very Tanfoglio appearance - given away by the shape of the back-strap, which CZ's never had but all Tanfoglios, save for the Baby Eagles, DO have.

Yet I came across this photograph of a well-used ITM that was marked differently than the common Action Arms imports.  You will note that the frame looks just like a CZ-75.  I wonder if early ITM's, with ITM in the box, are not true CZ clones and at some point, as a cost-saving concession, parts were acquired from Tanfoglio.  Check out the photos to see what I mean.  It seems that these are two very different pistols.  Could it be true that the first, older AT-84 really is licensed-built and uses the same specs as any other Pre-B 75?

Or, to put it another way, the AT-84 is a Pre B clone whereas the AT-84S is a Tanfoglio-based pistol?

Davis

Older ITM from 1984 (courtesy of Empire Arms).



versus my own AT-84



and the one posted here, recently,

http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?topic=24153.0

Offline badge38

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2009, 05:03:36 PM »
 Man ..... that's about as close as you can get to a CZ replicant ......
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Offline Southern Forester

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2009, 09:15:52 PM »
Hogg says that the ITM is a license-built CZ, which makes no sense if it is made from Tanfoglio parts.  However, if the first ones were carbon-copies, then that would make sense: later ones were Tanfoglio spec, earlier ones were CZ spec.  But, then, who knows?

Offline bang bang

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2009, 10:04:40 PM »
if you have a chance to get Ramos' book on the CZ, it covers alot of info with regards to the clones.  its a really good read with most if not all of the CZ clones. 

according to Ramos.  .."the AT84 pistol series was undertaken by ITM in Solothurn, Switzerland, in 1982.  Through a joint ventrure with the Czech weapons factory and its export company, Merkuria, ITM was to produce the CZ75 in its original configuration."

there are comments about how Tanfoglio was to make and rough finsih parts and then ITM was to do the final work/assembly.


« Last Edit: July 06, 2009, 10:06:14 PM by bang bang »

Offline Southern Forester

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2009, 10:11:49 PM »
Yeah, but look at the photos.  The AT-84S has obvious Tanfoglio features.  The older AT-84 does not (and it even has the date in the same location as a CZ).

Davis

Online jwc007

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #5 on: July 07, 2009, 12:52:57 AM »
On the very early Tanfoglio CZ Clones, most all of the parts will interchange with the Pre B CZ75.  As Tanfoglio and Swiss designs progressed, this became less and less.  I've actually been able to use some of the smaller CZ Pre-B parts to repair some of the older Tanfoglio Pistols.
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Offline eddieturbo2

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2011, 01:12:31 AM »
Hey guys sorry to bring this back from the dead but. I just got one of the older swiss AT 84 from 1984 like the one shown by Southern Forester at the begining of these posts. I found it on gunbroker and jumped on it after finding this post. Is there anyone on this forum that has one? I would realy love to see some detailed pictures of what they have. Especialy the barrel stamp and serial number. The one I have is very close to the first one posted as I have serial number CH00366 prob made the same day i guess.

I am sure my pistol is not finished original as it has a shinny nickle finish. And I do not have the original barrel as it came with a CZ stamped barrel. (I did not know it was missing the original barrel I prob would have passed it up if i knew) 

Good news though is that I can verify that my CZ75b and kadet kit slides fit. And its just like every other Pre B that do not fit original cz75b 16round mags but will fit SP-01 mags perfectly. It also came with a Pre B mag. This thing is a real perfect "cz clone".

What would a pistol like this be worth?













Offline Josh Ramsey

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2011, 01:25:56 AM »
VERY nice!

I need to land me one of those :D

Offline tekarra

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 06:27:48 PM »
Hello eddieturbo,
These are the only photos I have of my AT84.  The satin chrome finish is original and I have seen blued versions, but not a shiny finish.  However, that does not mean is was not produced.  Mine only has fired a couple of hundred rounds and I have the box and all that came in it.




Offline eddieturbo2

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2011, 08:57:51 AM »
Thanks Josh for the comments and thanks tekarra for posting the pics thats one nice at84.

Offline eddieturbo2

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #10 on: December 26, 2011, 02:07:15 PM »
So does anyone have one of the early 1984 AT-84 pistols on the forum. Am I the only one? I guess it must be a rare find then.  :)

Offline tekarra

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #11 on: December 26, 2011, 04:44:34 PM »
Will check mine when I return home  later in the week, it could be from that time frame.

Offline farmerRick

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #12 on: December 29, 2011, 06:43:13 PM »
Hello eddieturbo,
These are the only photos I have of my AT84.  The satin chrome finish is original and I have seen blued versions, but not a shiny finish.  However, that does not mean is was not produced.  Mine only has fired a couple of hundred rounds and I have the box and all that came in it.





I just found one like that a couple months ago.  It appears to be unfired, with papers and plastic container.

I have not fired it yet as the sear is broken.  The gun will fire, but the safety is INOP at this time.  I need to get ahold of Angus and see what he can do for me. 

I will try to post some pics this weekend. 

I was under the impression that this was a stainless steel gun, are you saying it is chrome plated?
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Online jwc007

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #13 on: December 29, 2011, 07:05:54 PM »
I have not fired it yet as the sear is broken.  The gun will fire, but the safety is INOP at this time.  I need to get ahold of Angus and see what he can do for me. 

Parts for Series 88 and later Tanfoglio Pistols such as the EAA Witness should work.  Minor fitting may be involved.

Finish is most likely Industrial Hard Chrome.
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Offline tekarra

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Re: A tale of two AT-84's
« Reply #14 on: December 29, 2011, 10:00:11 PM »
No, it is not stainless steel it is chrome.
I think the Tanfoglio 88 parts would be closer than cZ parts and may require a bit of fitting.  There should probably be a post on this somewhere in the clone or gunsmithing forums.