Author Topic: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82  (Read 5819 times)

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Offline Warrior_Rider

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Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« on: December 17, 2009, 01:07:18 PM »
There have been a lot of posts concerning the various coatings folks have tried to make their CZ82 look better as well as protecting them from the elements.  And many of those coatings surely do look very nice.  It is great to have pictures submitted with such information.  However, I have not heard anything about having the CZ82 hot blued.  Does anyone have any experience with a nice blue job, or any opinions as to the worthiness of taking on such a project?

--Warrior_Rider

Offline glitteraldo

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2009, 01:35:23 PM »
A tank hot blue job is beyond time,money,cost of equipment of most people.Tanks salts cost money.If you want to have a gunsmith do it,go ahead.I have cold compound blued,cold rust blued/browned,baking laquered,home nickel plated with a Texas Elecroplating kit,used a sharpie black"after simple rubbing alchol deoiling"to touchup.Of all them I like the results of cold rusting process,but it takes alot of work,but is the hardest blue.

Offline Warrior_Rider

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #2 on: December 17, 2009, 05:32:19 PM »
Thanks Glitteraldo for your response.  Yes, I do understand the need for the salts and tank.  That is equipment that my uncle has and that I will be able to use.  He does a lot of repair and refinishing for some very expensive rifles and shotguns.  Occasionally, he does a pistol.  Having just talked with him this afternoon he is very interested in this project and might just purchase a CZ82 himself, and that way he can do them both at the same time.   :)

While I understand it takes a lot of time and effort, and special resources, what I really am interested in is if anyone has gone to the trouble and expense.  The CZ82 fits my hand so well and shoots so accurately I think, at least for me, that it will be worth it.  I was just wondering if anyone who has done it has any tips or recommendations.

--Warrior_Rider.

Offline Artist

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 12:21:27 PM »
Since you have access to the required equipment I would not hesitate for a moment to hot blue your CZ82. There is something very special about a quality hot blue finish and you'll have the prettiest CZ82 on the block. I say go for it and then post photos so we can all admire your CZ82 in all it's hot blued goodness.
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Offline NVCZ

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 11:03:28 PM »
"I would NOT be jealous, I would NOT be jealous, I would NOT be jealous, I would NOT be jealous...."

what was the 11th Commandment? Oh yeah, "Do Not Covet Thy Neighbors Gun".

Would love to see pics of results.

NVCZ
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Offline Warrior_Rider

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2009, 09:53:58 AM »
Okay, guys.  Of course I will upload some pictures once the job is finished.  This project will not begin until after I receive my new handgrips from Dennis.  So I don't expect to even get started until towards the end of January.  Hopefully I will have something to show by mid-February.

Oh, by the way, the new heavy-duty recoil spring certainly did improve the sharp recoil.  I am glad that I ordered it from Wolff Springs.

--Warrrior_Rider.

Offline Nutnspecial

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #6 on: May 05, 2012, 04:00:30 AM »
WoW! Nothing since 2009?

I've been thinking about refinish options for the CZ-82 as well. I have also been "studying" the many  options!

1st option is "touch up" paint for under $5. (Black fingernail polish is cheaper).

There are so many options above that....that my head is swimming!
About the highest price I saw was $315 for a 600 grit Master Blue. Standard 400 grit was about $190. 

As for the "coated" finishes, Cerakote seems to have more favor.
KG 2400 (Gun-Kote) is $10 online, Durakote is $29+? ....read each of their websites about their product.

Cerakote has the best instructions as well as videos!   Hmm, have a look :

http://www.cerakoteguncoatings.com/resource/application_and_training/

At the end of the day, I'd prefer a "total" hot blued finish, as CZ did to their CZ-83 Civilian examples. (32/380 ACP)   

As it stands, I have a set of Meprolight ML-17777  tritium sights that I don't want to have to pay twice to install! (once on the unfinished slide...then again when the slide is refinished)

I guess I should have bought an ugly Rambo knife and been done with it!    LOL
 



Offline Simper

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #7 on: May 05, 2012, 05:53:10 AM »
If you want to blue try this it sound very inexpensive. I have not tried it myself. I found it on the web some where.

I’ve never been one to like using any of the various cold bluing solutions, as the finish is both very temporal and lacking depth and color as well. So, what are the alternatives for the home hobbyist? My choice is simple, the deep, rich luster of niterbluing! The same process that used to make the deep blue/black finish found on fine custom European guns from a lifetime ago. Yes, yes, I know that I said a reasonable alternative for the home hobbyist, and that’s exactly what old-world niter-bluing can be! I hope I have your attention by this time, as when I first started doing niter bluing I was so excited that I simply couldn’t wait for my first project! It’s really too simple, and I can’t understand how in the world so many gallons of inferior cold-bluing solution are marketed every year when niter-bluing is so simple and so inexpensive.

Inexpensive? Yes, it surely is! Of course it isn’t if you’re looking through those high-priced specialty gunsmithing supply catalogs. Just the bluing salts alone will set a person back about fifty bucks, not to mention the specialty tanks to use the solutions! However, niter-bluing uses nothing except potassium nitrate for its active ingredient, and potassium nitrate in a suitably pure form is as far away as the local hardware store, nursery supply shop or home improvement mart! It’s called stump-remover, and it sells for about two dollars per one pound bottle of powdered potassium nitrate! For my purposes, a simple standard sheet-metal bread-pan filled with three pounds of stump-remover creates a bluing tank large enough for many small projects including handgun frames, the actions of many rifles (less barrels of course), and all sorts of small firearms component parts that benefit from bluing. Too, the three pounds of potassium nitrate in the bread pan is just about the right quantity of material when it expands and bubbles up when being heated to a liquid. Add no liquid of any kind to the potassium nitrate! The crystals will melt down into a liquid with heat alone, DO NOT ADD ANYTHING ELSE!

A Coleman stove or propane burner is perfect for heating and maintaining the temperature for our homemade bluing tank, and the potassium nitrate needs to be heated until it turns into a liquid form, whereupon it becomes a rather translucent yellow when fully up to temperature. When first melting down the powdered stump-remover version of this compound, it will bubble and foam with a brown almost glass-like formation as the crystals melt down, and the trapped air from the powder escapes. This is entirely normal, and merely stirring as the potassium nitrate comes up to temperature, and pushing the hard, clotted clusters of material that form back down into the liquid until all is melted, and the foaming action ceases is all that is needed to prepare your bluing solution. Once all of the material is melted into a liquid state, and the surface has been crystal-free for about fifteen minutes, you’re ready to blue those small parts that have been prepared ahead of time. Be aware that all parts must be completely free of oil and grease, and above all FREE OF ALL MOISTURE! Keep all water sources away from the liquid potassium nitrate, as a steam explosion will take place similar to getting water in molten lead! However, if you keep the bluing area free of water in all forms, you’ll have no problems at all in the bluing process.

I have a fairly large tablespoon that I’ve drilled with holes to make it almost like a small sieve and use it to support small screws for bluing, lowering the screws in the spoon into the liquid potassium nitrate for bluing. All other small parts are suspended on fine wire for easy retrieval from the hot bluing solution. Simply dunk the degreased parts into the molted bluing salts for fifteen minutes or more to get a nice deep, rich blue color, the longer the part remains in the bluing salts the deeper and richer the color (at least to a point). Upon removal quench the newly blued parts into a suitably large container filled with common motor oil. This oil quench does a couple of things, first it stops the bluing process and kills the bluing salts, second, while the pores of the metal are open and expanded from the heat of the bluing solution, the oil penetrates into the pores and creates a deep, protective layer on the newly blued steel that will last for many, many years.

Most people are absolutely astounded at how easy a simpler niter-blue hot bluing process can be, and more importantly the professional quality that the home hobbyist can achieve with such little expense or effort. The before and after photos of the small component parts to this carbine project speak for themselves.

After bluing all necessary gun parts, simply turn off the heat source under your bluing pan, and allow the potassium nitrate to cool of its own accord, and it will congeal and harden into a solid white mass. Cover the container with aluminum foil, and store away until the next time there is a project that needs blued parts, then it’s a simple matter to once again heat up the bread pan full of bluing salts, get them in a liquid state and get the job done. Saved in the manner described here, your bluing salts and improvised bluing tank will last years, and years and years! If kept from moisture, the pan shouldn’t rust out, and the bluing salts simply don’t wear out from occasional use. So, for six bucks worth of stump remover and a fifty-cent thrift-store bread pan a person has a lifetime of small parts bluing capability.
« Last Edit: May 05, 2012, 06:04:33 AM by Simper »
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Offline danwdooley

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #8 on: May 05, 2012, 09:06:25 AM »
I'm glad this thread has been revived.  I'm in the process of rebluing my CZ82 at this moment.  The process is rust bluing as I too prefer to not go the more temporary cold blue method.  At some time in the future I may try some of the spray on coating methods on another gun but for this one, I wanted to try the bluing.

I'm using Laurel Mountain's gun browning chemical.  Yes, it can also be used for rust bluing.  The Classic Rust Blue from Brownells is, I suspect, long extinct.  Pilkington is currently out of stock there as well and it's a lot more expensive for apparently doing the same thing.  So, the info on the Laurel Mountain barrel brown and degreser promised the ability to blue as well so I figured I'd give it a shot.

After removing the paint from the metal, I did an initial degreasing and spent a fair amount of time sandpaper polishing the metal.  I was not looking for a perfect mirror shine but to at least smooth out the more textured surfaces and get rid of as best possible the machine scouring marks.  Then in prep for the actual application of the bluing chemical, I did a more thorough degreasing and avoided hand touching the metal from that point.  Oh yes, I also made some tapered dowl rod plugs for the ends of the barrel.

The barrel and receiver parts, especially that part which shows through the ejection port I brought to a bright shine.  I did the same for the extractor.  The receiver/barrel I covered with masking tape to avoid getting the rusting chemical on.  I then used a swab of cotton held with a wooden clothespin to wipe the chemical on the metal.  I then hung the metal parts on a line outside to do their thing.

Per the instructions with this chemical, three hours after the first wipe of the chemical, a second light wipe is added.  After another three hours (a total of six hours rusting time) the parts are then boiled in distilled water for five minutes, removed, and then carded.

The first "coating" is complete and I observed some interesting results.  Some parts of the gun which had been previously blued; trigger, trigger guard, hammer, safety, etc, turned very dark almost black with this first application.  Though those parts had been factory blued, I had as much as possible, removed the bluing and shined the metal to the white.  This type of steel took to the rust bluing quite well.  One coat will not be enough to provide the best over all and even bluing but I don't believe it will take more than two or three applications.

The parts which had been painted, the slide and frame, on the other hand, I believe will take several more applications.  Though they did darken with the first application, they did not turn black but something closer to a gray to bronze color.  Interestingly I encountered actual rust on the slide which did not seem to be directly related to the rusting chemical process.  Normally in rust bluing the red coat of rust which builds up on the metal surface as the result of the chemical process, during the boiling step turns from red to a powdery black.  This rust actually appeared as a result of the boiling.  I have no explanation of that but I was able to card it off with a wire brush.

After the wire brush work and with degreased 0000 steel wool, the slide and frame are smoother.  The rust is gone and there is more or less an even coloring.  It's not black but I think it is on the way and subsequent applications will achieve that.   I hope so at least.

I am now on the second application.  I applied the thin coating of the chemical this morning and the parts are now hanging to rust.  After the three hours have passed I will carefully give it another thin coating per the instructions and then let it sit another three hours.  I will update this with the progress as it occurs.  I have also been shooting some photos which I will post later.
Dan,

Yes, the CZ-82 is my favorite gun.  :-)

Offline Simper

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #9 on: May 05, 2012, 12:38:12 PM »
danwdooley

Thanks for the report I look forward to seeing the pictures and your overall impression of the process.
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Offline danwdooley

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2012, 02:19:12 PM »
More often than not, with any process or instructions for the process, you have to learn to "read between the lines" so to speak.  Also to take into account related information.  Thus it is good to do wide rather than just deep research  :o on a subject before concluding that it is fully understood.

Thus my additional thoughts now.  A couple of things were a little perplexing in regard to my experiences of yesterday.  One, contrary to general information given on the art of rust bluing, my metal did not turn the expected reddish color after the allotted time.  Those items which had previously been blued tended to turn a dark black rather than achieving the coating of red which all of the documentation describes.  That didn't bother me as the end result should be black.  The parts (hammer, trigger, trigger guard, etc) are all of the same type of steel (apparently) and though they had started out blued from the factory, I had sanded and polished all of the bluing away.  They were now shinny "chrome" colored.  I did this for a reason, even if it might not have been a good reason.  I rationalized that if I am applying a new bluing finish, in the interest of uniformity I might be better off removing all of the previous bluing so that the affects of the new bluing process would be the same with all of the metal.  Again, that may be a false premise. 

Now they have turned a dark black and looked pretty good.  A rust blue process should turn the surface red as with rust prior to the boiling stage.   Secondly, the other parts of the gun, namely the slide and frame, though there were spots of rust on them, did not turn wholly to a coat of the red rust.  After removing the parts from the boiling water, I was a little concerned that some areas, especially of the slide, now looked rusted.  The boiling process is supposed to turn red rust into the black coating.  So something was not working right.

The instructions which come with the chemical imply that following three hours of standing with the chemical on the metal, another thin coating is applied.  Then after another three hours, the boiling is done.  That's the implication, or my interpretation of what the instructions MEAN.  Further reading this morning expounds on the process.  Three hours or MORE until the coating of rust sets in.  I did not wait long enough.  Likewise, I may not have applied the chemical quite smoothly enough.  The coverage was somewhat spotty and I had a few small areas where after a time of exposure the metal still looked a little shiny.  I dabbed those spots again during the time they were hanging to rust.

I was able to get the rust spots off last night with the "carding" process but according to all I have read, the oxide which should be black and like a powdery coating is relatively easily wiped off with a carding brush, a rough cloth or even degreased 0000 grade steel wool.  It took some work to remove the rusted coverage.  It did come off and underneath the coloring of the metal was just like the surrounding metal.  These rust spots were mostly on the slide and a few on the frame.  The parts which were originally blued (not painted) did not have any of the rust present and carding off the layer of black left a pretty nice black to the metal.  So those parts appeared to take the bluing in spite of not seeing the expected coating of rust.

This morning when I wiped on the first coat of the chemical for this stage, I really tried to be careful to make nice even and smooth wipes of the chemical.  Likewise, I ignored the implied three hour point and waited until the metal on all parts did indeed show signs of the brownish red coating.  Perhaps today is just more humid than yesterday.  The metal did start to take on the rusty look.  When it looked like it was going to be a good over all coverage, I did apply the second very light wipe of the chemical.  Now the rusting continues.  I am not relying on the six hour time reference but rather am waiting until the entire metal has a good layer of the rust.  That will take all day.  I started the process at 7 AM this morning and it's approaching 1:30 PM now and I think a few more hours may do the trick.

So, I guess the lesson is, be careful of thinking that you know the procedures and don't rely on just one abbreviated resource.   ;D

I'll provide an update after this stage is complete.
Dan,

Yes, the CZ-82 is my favorite gun.  :-)

Offline Simper

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2012, 03:13:11 PM »
Great follow up. Keep going.
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People move out of the way much faster now."

Offline danwdooley

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #12 on: May 05, 2012, 08:49:17 PM »
Much, much better results today.  Here are some pictures to to help tell the story.

Just torn apart and ready to paint strip, degrease and shine.  Ok, not looking for a mirror shine, just a smoother finish.  Oh, disregard the magazine base plate.  This one turned out to be aluminum and won't take the blue.  I ground off the paint and ground and polished.  I think I'll leave it white.


These internal parts and pins will not be blued.  Cleaned, oiled and bagged and set aside awaiting the finishing of the project for reassembly.


Previously blued parts now with the old bluing ground off and ready to join in the rust bluing fun.








Everything to be blued.  The parts of the frame - the receiver and barrel - shined and masked off to keep them from the rust project.


Yesterday's bluing operation.  I don't think I left them hang long enough as I never got the red rust coating before I did the boiling step.  Well, I was going by the time frame I understood from the instruction sheet and some indications from some on-line notes on the Mt. Laurel rusting chemical.  Six hours was not enough to cause the rust layer to form.



Much better results today.  I was careful to apply the coating evenly over the metal and left it hang much longer.  Of course today also felt like a more humid day than yesterday.  About nine hours this time.


Unlike yesterday's attempt, this time the red turned black in the boiling water.  One more difference.  Some reviewers have mentioned that the "five minute" suggestion for Mt. Laurel rust bluing is overkill.  That just pouring boiling water over the rusted parts will do the trick.  I did not find that to be correct at all.  In fact it was over five minutes before I observed the parts to really turn black.  Was that an indicator of the need to let the rusting process go even longer?   Don't know.  About seven minutes did it.


The coating on the frame and slide are much better today.  Not that black yet, but more in line with what most people report about the gray which with each repeat of the process gets darker and darker.  Apparently that is normal reaction with alloy metals rather than pure steel.  After yesterday's attempt, the coloring of the slide was more of a bronze.  Not what I was looking for.   :)


The steel parts which had been originally blued take to the bluing much quicker, already looking pretty good even with this application.  I don't know how many repeats will be required of these parts.  I suspect another couple of times.  The frame and slide will take a few more to achieve the desired blackness.



Dan,

Yes, the CZ-82 is my favorite gun.  :-)

Offline Simper

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #13 on: May 05, 2012, 11:49:27 PM »
Great, keep up the reports I am very intersted in how this all turns out.
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People move out of the way much faster now."

Offline geen

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Re: Blued finish vs Coated finish for CZ82
« Reply #14 on: May 06, 2012, 09:01:35 AM »
I wanted to hot blue my 82 but the cost and the fact that I could not see an example of work in person kept me from committing.  When I thought of how I wanted my gun to look I was thinking of the blue job done on colt revolvers I had seen. A very deep rich bluing and I would hate to spend more that the gun cost and be disappointed with how it looked. So I tried cold bluing it with Birchwood Casey bluing solution but the gun looked only so-so, better than the chipped up paint job it had when I got it but not what I had hoped.

Then I ran into a guy on one of the sites that had cold blued an 82 and it looked great. I asked him how he got it to look that good and he gave me his method. Using Oxpho Blue from Brownells made a big difference for me the bluing was much darker and it seemed to work better than the Birchwood Casey.  Also I used a heat gun and not a hair dryer. With the gun hotter than when I used a hair dryer I needed more solution as it evaporated fast so I had to take my time and make sure to keep enough solution on the part to make it work. I think with the Oxpho Blue and the heat gun I got a darker blue than I did the first time.  If you take your time and do all the prep work each time you apply the solution (I did it about six times) you will end up with a much more even result and it will last longer than you think.

There is a link to the method I used the 2nd time with a pic of my gun (I have posted it here a few times before) and a pic of the gun of the guy that gave me the instructions (bottom of the page. his gun looks better with a deeper blue). All in all the gun turned out great not hot blue great but nice none the less and though I know that it’s not a lifelong finish like a hot blue it is by no means temporary. I blued mine about 1.5 years ago and put a 1000 + rounds through it and it still looks great.  I do use a bluing touch-up pen (got it from Brownells) a couple times a year and it repairs any minor wear which takes about 5 minutes . I touch it up more out of me being anal than anything as the wear is so minor.

Below is the link to Sailor Curt’s site with the bluing method. He has a lot of good posts about the 82 including a step by step for Parkerizing so take a few minutes and look around at his other 82 posts.

http://sailorcurt.com/category/cz-82-vz-82/

« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 09:16:37 AM by geen »
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