Anyone uses/likes IMR 700X with 9mm loads?

[Wobbly]

It'll prolly be my poor man's powder for awhile (one of the cheapest around here), unless I get sponsored or win lottery

Not to worry. I understand "change" will be here any minute! 

[1SOW]

Today I found some local 1# jars of 700X for $16.95, but before I buy it I've been looking for load data using 124/125gr jacketed bullets.

The Hogdon/IMR site shows max load for the Sierra 124 FMJ barely at 1000'/sec with a 1.109" oal---mighty short.

The Lee handbook shows IMR 700X under 124 jacketed at ":  4.3-999'/sec to 4.8 at 1110'/sec & 32.6K cup.   This is .2 grs hotter than Hogden/IMR data recommended.  The Lee data shows "MINIMUM" oal at 1.135--way longer than Hogdon.

The Lee data indicates about 4.5 grs should make 'minor' PF plus a little.  (yes, I'd work UP^ to it.)

I did some forum searching and only got vague data.  Can anyone reinforce/confirm Lee's data?

[Cesar]

I load plated Berry's 124gr with OAL 1.11", powder charge 4.0gr, PF130.

[1SOW]

Thanks Cesar.  I may add a little more length and powder, but it should keep me in the smooth zone.
I like that 1.125-1.135 length and seating depth---when I can do it.

The 700X is shown as a little slower than n320.  Was there any affect to your POI?

Just a comment:  I've been pretty 'inflexible' with n320 and Federal SPPs.  I just finished installing the extended FP and will pick up the 700X soon.  I'm hoping all this will make the gun a little more flexible to powder and primers available locally.

Thanks again.

[Cesar]

Well, I never played with N320, so cannot compare. POI is same as POA with my guns and bullets I use. So me like that.
If you look at this table: http://www.reloadbench.com/burn.html - you'll see 700X burning rate is quite a few positions below N320, but... if you look at this, page 2: http://www.lapua.com/fileadmin/user_upload/esitteet/VihtavuoriReloadingGuideEdition8.pdf, you'll see the rate is the same, as far as I can tell. I think I'd trust powder manufacturer with VV credibility more
I too installed extended firing pins in my 2 CZs and now have no issues with primers. Before than I had 1 light strike with CCI after shooting 500rds, swapped the pin right after. The gun had 13# main spring, and now I even cut 2 coils off and SA pull is 2.25#.

The reason my OAL is 1.11 is the bullet, a little longer drives them into riflings.

Well, I'm almost out of 700X as we speak and will be playing with Clays (not Universal) in a short while.

[Mr. Sasquatch]

I'm new to reloading but it so happened that I've started with two powders: Titegroup and 700-X.  700-X is slower then TG and I can feel it in the softer recoil, which I like for my practice.

I agree with 1SOW. The load data for 9mm 125grn bullets are all over the place. I decided to stick with the Hodgdon's website. Since they own IMR I assumed they should know what they are talking about. I also did some rough interpolation between their data for lead bullets and FMJ bullets since Berry?s bullets are plated, not jacketed

With Berry's 124 grn RN bullets I worked up to this load: 3.9grn of 700-X with OAL = 1.125". Actually, in my P-01, I got good grouping with anywhere between 3.7 and 4.2gr (BTW 4.2grn is the max load for 700-X in Lyman's book)  but with 4.0 and 4.2 grn I was noticing some primer (WSP) flattening, so I quickly backed off and decided to go with 3.9gr for now. Being new to reloading I plan to play it safe until I get more experience and confidence in my "experiments?. I will not know what FPM I'm getting until I get a change to chrono this load in one of my club's meetings.

Up until now I measured each experimental load individually on the scale, but this week I?ll run a larger batch (200 rounds) of this load using my RCBS Uniflow powder meter so I'll find out soon how accurately and consistently 700-X will measure.

[1SOW]

Mr. Sasquatch :  Thank you.  That's good info too.

As I'm using jacketed (now 124FMJ, usually 125 JHP), I'll start fairly light with 10 and jump .2/10 and .4/for the last 10 to chrono them.

I'll post the results here when I finally get it all together.

Cesar:  I run the same springs (no coils off the 13# yet).  I put the longer FP in today, so I want to find a "primer sale" to give it a try.  I fired a few cases with primer only (Fed spp) in the garage and compared the hits with my range pick-ups.  The new pin definitely hit deeper.

The speed data I got from the Hogdon/IMR chart did show 700X faster than Bullseye and way faster than n320.

Thanks again for the replies.

[Cesar]

You can def start with 4.0gr with FMJ bullets loaded with same (1.11") or greater OAL, depending on the bullet.
When I do load development, I go with +0.2gr steps and chrono starting with lower loads.

When I came up with 4.0gr load for 124gr plated Berry's, I started with 3.4gr and bullets pretty much barely left the barrel. 3.6gr was a little better, 3.8gr was much better but velocity wasn't there (no signs of pressure), 4.0gr gave me average of 1055ft/s velocity, primers were getting a little flat, but they were Fed and brass was not new, I knew I could ignore that.

My guess-timate for 124gr FMJ bullets would be 4.2-4.3gr charge to make PF130. Remember, 700X is temp inverse powder, meaning the lower the outside temp is the greater velocity you get.

To be a purist, I don't agree with 'temp inverse' term, as if one studied physics, they'd know that colder air is denser, and brought to the same high temp (compared to warmer air) would expand more = higher volume = higher pressure. That's why car guys install CAI-Cold Air Intake

[Mr. Sasquatch]

Today I ran some throw consistency tests for 700-X with my Uniflow.
Here is the series of 10 consecutive tests, 10 throws each:
37.5, 37.0, 37.3, 36.8, 37.1, 36.9, 37.4, 37.6, 37.3, 37.0 grains

The max spread was 0.8gr per 10 loads = 0.08gr/load. This is almost 0.1gr spread/load.  My limited experience does not allow me to make a judgement if such variation will be of any importance; I'd welcome some comments about that from the more experienced forum members.

Since my loads are far away from the max (4.2gr),  I'm not concerned with such load variations at this point.

[1SOW]

Cesar:  The pressures listed in the reloading data were similar to n320, and your data shows the load weight is very much the same as n320 --.  I'll probably start somewhere around 3.8/1.125" (depending on what my Lee disc system will drop with 700X) and work up as I indicated.  I look forward to it. 

One last question:  considering the cooler weather, how much temp variation did you find  (call it a 65-70 deg change)?

Sasquatch:  If my Lee will drop that close, I'll be more than happy. 

[Cesar]

I chronoed the load at sea level at 60deg temp and personally didn't notice any diff (no chrono data) when shot a match on Nov. 20th with temp around 35deg.

[1SOW]

Thanks Cesar.

[Wobbly]

Today I ran some throw consistency tests for 700-X with my Uniflow.
Here is the series of 10 consecutive tests, 10 throws each:
37.5, 37.0, 37.3, 36.8, 37.1, 36.9, 37.4, 37.6, 37.3, 37.0 grains

The max spread was 0.8gr per 10 loads = 0.08gr/load. This is almost 0.1gr spread/load.  My limited experience does not allow me to make a judgement if such variation will be of any importance; I'd welcome some comments about that from the more experienced forum members.

Since my loads are far away from the max (4.2gr),  I'm not concerned with such load variations at this point.

Mr Sas -
With such a wide spread, we must assume (I hope you're sitting down) that there is some type of "operator error".    True some powders just don't like to meter well, but if the powder in question is not a stick powder, then you should have better results. With the Uniflow there are several tricks that can be used to really bring down the weight deviations...

? Powder baffle. You always want to fill your hopper at least 1/3 full and use a baffle placed at the bottom. When I get home I'll post a link to plans for "make your own baffle" for all you cheap, do-it-yourself types.
? The first shall be last. You never want to deal with the first 10 drops from any powder measure. What you want is correct weight, but what a PM dispenses is volume. Therefore, the key to accurate powder drops is consistent density. The powder in the PM needs to "settle in", so the first 10+ drops need to stay unused and be poured right back into the top of the hopper.
? Knock-Knock. Vibration helps settle the powder to a consistent density. It also helps fight any powder stuck up inside the PM. So when you raise your operating handle "knock" it against the end-of-throw twice. and when you lower the operation lever bang it against the stop twice again. So operating the PM sounds like: Knock, knock.....knock, knock. This take some practice.
? Static. Wipe the plastic parts with an anti-static clothes dryer cloth. Static is more of an issue on all-plastic Lee PMs, but can affect anyone during colder months.
? Smooth operator. Obviously you want to operate the PM handle the same way each time for over-all consistency. Practice makes perfect.
? Setup adjustment. Use a drop averaging method when making the initial adjustments. If you want 3.9gr of powder, then dial-in your PM in by dropping 10 loads and looking for a weight of 39.0gr. So you may get some drops at 3.95gr and some at 3.85gr, but the average drop will be closer to 3.90gr than adjustment by using single drops.
? Lubrication. PMs get their lubrication from the gray graphite coating on the powder itself. If your PM is sticky you can best lubricate it by applying some graphite powder. Never use oil or grease on the parts that touch the powder.

Hope this helps !

[Mr. Sasquatch]

Yeah, sure. Let's dump on poor Sasq.

Mr Sas -
With such a wide spread, we must assume (I hope you're sitting down) that there is some type of "operator error".    True some powders just don't like to meter well, but if the powder in question is not a stick powder, then you should have better results. With the Uniflow there are several tricks that can be used to really bring down the weight deviations...

? Powder baffle. You always want to fill your hopper at least 1/3 full and use a baffle placed at the bottom. When I get home I'll post a link to plans for "make your own baffle" for all you cheap, do-it-yourself types. I got a baffle.
? The first shall be last. You never want to deal with the first 10 drops from any powder measure. What you want is correct weight, but what a PM dispenses is volume. Therefore, the key to accurate powder drops is consistent density. The powder in the PM needs to "settle in", so the first 10+ drops need to stay unused and be poured right back into the top of the hopper. I try to do that, maybe not 10 but the first few drops are always recycled
? Knock-Knock. Vibration helps settle the powder to a consistent density. It also helps fight any powder stuck up inside the PM. So when you raise your operating handle "knock" it against the end-of-throw twice. and when you lower the operation lever bang it against the stop twice again. So operating the PM sounds like: Knock, knock.....knock, knock. This take some practice. I have been using the single-bang technique. Consider me now a double-banger.
? Static. Wipe the plastic parts with an anti-static clothes dryer cloth. Static is more of an issue on all-plastic Lee PMs, but can affect anyone during colder months. Anti-static wipes? OK. Another expense, ha?
? Smooth operator. Obviously you want to operate the PM handle the same way each time for over-all consistency. Practice makes perfect. No comment. Nose to the grind stone. All you hear is bang-bang, bang-bang, bang-bang.....
? Setup adjustment. Use a drop averaging method when making the initial adjustments. If you want 3.9gr of powder, then dial-in your PM in by dropping 10 loads and looking for a weight of 39.0gr. So you may get some drops at 3.95gr and some at 3.85gr, but the average drop will be closer to 3.90gr than adjustment by using single drops. That's what my 'experiments' were like. I picked a setting and ran 10 x10 drops.
? Lubrication. PMs get their lubrication from the gray graphite coating on the powder itself. If your PM is sticky you can best lubricate it by applying some graphite powder. Never use oil or grease on the parts that touch the powder. Even Abominable knows not to use any oil there.

All jokes aside, thanks R. What would be a good throw consistency in my case. Let's say I wanted to charge 3.7gr of 700-X. What spread on 10 measurements 10 throws each would you consider good/safe?

[Cesar]

Does it go by volume or weight?

Let's say you can fit so many tennis balls in a jar... or may be 4 times as many golf balls... or try a few tennis balls and a few golf balls.
Let's say all those balls have same density, then jar filled with golf balls will weight more than one filled with tennis balls.

Powder flakes are not always the exact same size. If you measure by volume, the more smaller sized flakes you get in a charge, the heavier the charge will be. If deviation is within reason, you should not care.
If all the flakes were of exactly same size, there would be no deviation... well... theoretically

IMR 700X is powder with medium-to-large flake size. But I see a lot of smaller (broken down) flakes in the bottle too.

So, what I'm trying to say - the smaller flake size is the more consistant weight will be, for the same volume.

Does anyone correct/compensate powder charge for individual bullets? I don't think so. 124gr bullets may weigh 123.7gr and 124.2gr...