Author Topic: 9mm Loads using Clays powder  (Read 9912 times)

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Offline Vandel

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9mm Loads using Clays powder
« on: July 14, 2010, 08:59:22 AM »
I reload 223 and shotgun (both sabot slug and trap/skeet). I noticed on the powder I use for trap/skeet load data for handgun but 9mm was not listed. I went to Hodgdon's web site and got the bellow data:

Cartridge Information
Case:  Winchester Barrel Length:  4"
Twist:  1:10" Trim Length:  .750"
Primer:  CCI 500   
   
9mm Luger
Cartridge Load Data Starting Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Maximum Loads

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
115 GR. LRN  Clays  .356"  1.100"  3.0  954  25,300 CUP  3.4  1039  31,000 CUP 
115 GR. SPR GDHP  Clays  .355"  1.125"  3.7  1066  30,900 CUP  3.9  1095  32,600 CUP 
125 GR. LCN  Clays  .356"  1.125"  2.9  899  22,700 CUP  3.3  993  30,900 CUP 
125 GR. SIE FMJ  Clays  .355"  1.090"  3.5  1010  28,000 CUP  3.7  1056  32,500 CUP 

NEVER EXCEED MAXIMUM LOADS

Sorry the columns are no longer formatted but for my question it will work fine. Trying to find the projectiles I ran in to problems figuring out what the acronyms mean. I think I know some of them but asking to be sure

LRN - Lear Round Nose?
SPR - Speer?
GDHP - unknown hollow point
LCN - no clue
SIE - Sierra?
FMJ - Full metal Jacket

I'm asking in hopes to find a projectile the gun will like and not have to store / purchase another type of powder.

Thanks in advance

Offline fxdrider

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 09:31:26 AM »
LRN = Lead Round Nose

GDHP = Gold Dot Hollow Point

SPR = Speer

Not sure on LCN...perhaps Lead Conical-Nose? Just a guess.

SIE = Sierra

FMJ = Full Metal Jacket (the bullet, not the movie) ;)

I too have a good supply of Clay's. I've been using Missouri Bulluts 124 gr. Lead Round-Nose bullet over 3.4 gr. of Clay's. I get an average velocity of about 1050 f.p.s. out of my Shadow.
Since I'm using the load in USPSA competition, I am concerned about reliability issues stemming from lead bullet crud build-up and the tight throats on CZ chambers, so I am beginning to experiment with Clays loads and plated bullets. (Berry's Mfg. 124 gr. RN). I hope to get to the range for some velocity/accuracy tests in the next week. I'll post results.
"If you are finished, unload and show clear..."

Offline Vandel

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 10:35:13 AM »
Sorry did a typo on the Lead Round nose. I included a link for those on my first post.

Looking for the others I found

Speer
Gold Dot Hollow Point


Sierra Full Metal Jacket

did a search at midway for the two your using

Missouri Bulluts 124 gr. Lead Round-Nose
Berry's Mfg. 124 gr. RN

Didn't find anything yet. thanks for the load data your using, that will help expand possible choices

edit:
I found Missouri Bullets
and now the Berry's

Price wise the Missouri has the rest beat.
« Last Edit: July 14, 2010, 11:34:56 AM by vandelescrow »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 12:15:31 PM »
Mr Crow -
Welcome aboard. You are correct, a lot of the common shotgun powders do make good pistol powders. However, powder speeds are much more critical in pistol than shotgun, and therein lies a pitfall waiting for new reloaders that you should be aware of.

There is a powder called "Clays" and another slower powder called "Universal Clays". You DON'T EVER want to get those 2 mixed up. One is number 16 on the burn rate chart, while the other is number 36.

Just want to keep you as safe as possible. Enjoy.   ;)

Burn Rate Chart
In God we trust; On 'starting load' we rely.

Offline Vandel

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 01:22:05 PM »
Mr Crow -
Welcome aboard. You are correct, a lot of the common shotgun powders do make good pistol powders. However, powder speeds are much more critical in pistol than shotgun, and therein lies a pitfall waiting for new reloaders that you should be aware of.

There is a powder called "Clays" and another slower powder called "Universal Clays". You DON'T EVER want to get those 2 mixed up. One is number 16 on the burn rate chart, while the other is number 36.

Just want to keep you as safe as possible. Enjoy.   ;)

Burn Rate Chart
Thanks for the info. I am using "Clays", not the universal. which per the chart is 16.

Overhearing a few people at one of our club meetings I heard 9mm is hard to get right. On what I've loaded so far, per load data I found in books I'd use the starting load and reduce it 10%. Load 10 rounds and inspect the ejected case/hull before going hog wild with loading. I never found a problem and stayed with that recipe, even with the 10% reduction. I do not have a load book for 9mm yet.

I know people that are serious about competition keep tweaking their recipe and some people try to get the maximum velocity. Maximum velocity just wears out your weapon faster and I’m not competing (yet). As long as I’m able to hit what I’m aiming at consistently I’m happy.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 06:22:22 PM »
Mr Crows -
Ah, thanks for the additional info! The Clays should do very well in a 9mm. I've never used the powder, but as you see from the powder chart, it's right in the same speed with Win231/HP-38 and N320 and ever so slightly slower than TiteGroup. That's a great speed range for 115gr and 124gr.

The truth of the matter is, most pistol competition is done WELL below max load, near the middle of the load range. So you are already near the sweet spot.

9x19 is not "difficult", but you do need to be careful. The reduced volume of the case means that pressure goes up fast with deeper seating or a little extra powder. So you do need to go slowly, run sample batches, and generally keep the scales and calipers close by. This you seem to have caught onto very well. The fixed articles at the top of this forum will help you even more.

As for load books, you can 't do any better than the Lyman book. It covers lead and jacketed loads over numerous powders. It comes in paperback and hardback, so watch what you order.

The web site for Berry is HERE.

Ask questions. There's always willing help here. All the best.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 07, 2010, 12:35:44 PM by rfwobbly1 »
In God we trust; On 'starting load' we rely.

Offline Vandel

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 06:44:46 PM »
Thanks rfwobbly1,

I have not reloaded 9mm yet, I still need to get the dies for my press but I've been saving my brass.

Offline fxdrider

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2010, 06:33:57 AM »
I know people that are serious about competition keep tweaking their recipe and some people try to get the maximum velocity. Maximum velocity just wears out your weapon faster and I’m not competing (yet). As long as I’m able to hit what I’m aiming at consistently I’m happy.

For USPSA competition, we're not so much concerned with maximum velocity as with making "Power Factor". Power factor is determined by multiplying the weight of your bullet times its velocity and divide the result by 1000 - i.e.:

230 gr. bullet X 718 f.p.s. = 165,140 / 1000 = 165.14, or 165 power factor.

A round has to achieve at least 165 power factor to be considered "Major" and at least 125 to be considered "Minor".
Targets are scored differently depending on power factor. "A" hits score 5 points for both Major and Minor, however "B" and "C" hits score 4 points for Major and 3 points for Minor. If a competitor scores all "A"'s on a stage, major or minor doesn't matter so much - but if said competitor comes up with 5 "C"s instead of all A's, he'll have 5 fewer points shooting "minor" than if he had shot "major" power factor. The lower point score could significantly affect his place in the overall scoring.
Most competitors that I know will load to a power factor at least 5 points over their intended minimum - for Major 170 and for Minor 130. That is wise insurance against coming in too low when you're ammo gets run through the "match" chronograph. Many a competitor throughout the history of the sport has loaded their ammo close to the 165 minimum for Major on THEIR own chrono, only to be bumped down to minor at the match chrono because their ammo wasn't quite making it. Many reasons for this - could be a temperature-sensitive powder and match day is cooler than the day you chronoed your ammo at your home range...or maybe your chrono is calibrated a bit differently then the match chrono, etc.

If a competitor loads ammo too hot, as you mentioned  the gun gets beat up, the shooter's hands get beat up, as well as recovery time from recoil goes up, etc. Most of us try to keep it in the "sweet" spot - making power factor by a comfortable margin without going so hot as to slow us down.
"If you are finished, unload and show clear..."

Offline Cesar

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #8 on: October 05, 2010, 08:26:28 PM »
Sorry for ressurecting the thread :)
I just got 4 bottles of Clays last night and would like to load a few thou of Berry's 124gr plated RN bullets, are we talking 3.4-3.6gr charge for those?

Also, how sensitive is it to low outside temps and high altitude?
« Last Edit: October 05, 2010, 08:33:33 PM by Cesar »

Offline Vandel

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #9 on: October 06, 2010, 12:39:37 AM »
I found for the LRN 2.5 will not cycle the gun properly, 2.6 will so is the minimum for my gun (factory recoil spring). 2.8 has the tightest grouping. Granted this is with an OAL of 1.07. Because of the inconsistencies of the powder drop, I am loading 2.8 - 2.9 and this is working fine for me.

With your plated RN's, you will be able to get a longer OAL and this will change the amount of powder from what I'm using.

I'm weighing each powder drop to ensure they are all the same and because Clays is such a fast powder, with my OAL it is easy to have internal pressures in the +P range. Because of wear and tear on the gun I do not want +P.

Offline Cesar

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #10 on: October 06, 2010, 01:02:37 AM »
Ok, I hear ya, thanks a bunch!! I mean it, really!!

I'm gonna load @ OAL 1.11" with the Berry's I mentioned. I'll prolly start with 3.4gr.
Berry's seem to have hard (pretty hard) lead alloy... but... pretty thin copper 'jacket'... I got a chrono, so....
I'll report back when I chrono my loads. I'm down to ONE single lonely primer left so far. LOL :D Gimme a week or so.
Stay tuned ;)

Offline CZ75BRocks

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #11 on: October 06, 2010, 06:39:10 AM »
I'm interested in the Chrono results.  Tell us what you get for Standard Deviation and Standard Error.  I'm using HS-6 or WSF.  I use HS-6 because it works in 9mm, 38 Super +P, 40 cal, & 45acp.  WSF isn't that broad and I'm always looking for an alternative. We all learned that lesson after the last election!!

Just to make absolutely clear...This is Clays, NOT Universal Clays...correct?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 06:44:43 AM by CZ75BRocks »

Offline Vandel

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #12 on: October 06, 2010, 10:25:03 AM »
CZ75BRocks,

The information I gave is for Clays, not universal.

Cesar,

Because the max is 3.6 I think I would start lower then 3.4. I do not know what your OAL will be but I would start at 3.0, then 3.2, 3.4 make 10 rounds each. put a target up with a couple bulls eyes. Fire all the 3.0 at one bulls eye ensuring a new hole appears in the target each time (or I found easier to ensure a cloud of dirt came up from the back stop each time) to ensure the bullet cleared the barrel. After firing the last round if the slide did not lock to the rear, this load is not your minimum. Try the 3.2 at a different bulls eye doing the same thing, then finally the 3.4.

The least powder that locked the slide to the rear is your minimum.

Now look at the groupings on the target. For me the 2.8 was just making the same hole bigger with 2 flyers (standing unsupported). This is probably not my max but I didn't think it would get better then that.

Because 3.6 is the max, unless you know for sure your powder drop will not exceed this I would not use it.

Because I am not an expert, just relaying my experience, please only use what I said as a guide on how to work up your load.

Most important:
make sure each projectile leaves the barrel before you pull the trigger again.

Good luck and let us know what you find
« Last Edit: October 06, 2010, 10:27:38 AM by Vandel »

Offline Cesar

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #13 on: October 07, 2010, 10:37:01 AM »
Thanks a lot, will load some, chrono/observe and report back...

Offline Cesar

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Re: 9mm Loads using Clays powder
« Reply #14 on: January 08, 2011, 04:02:27 PM »
I'm still to chrono my loads and to finalize one with powder/bullet combo that is suitable for USPSA/IDPA.
So far, I use Berry's 124gr RN plated, Clays, OAL 1.11", Fed SPP.

2.8rg powder charge cycles gun reliably but is most likely the lightest charge that will do so. I have light springs in Shadow too.
3.0gr - not much improvement.
3.2gr - still very light and very soft load.
3.4gr - no pressure signs but it feels closer to my regular loads. I had no chance to chrono yet.

Loaded a bunch with 3.3gr charge and shot a few mags last night - very very soft...
I'll report back on chrono results and final load data.