Author Topic: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!  (Read 3381 times)

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Offline user1979

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The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« on: September 12, 2010, 05:26:08 PM »
I'm sure everyone on the board has been following my ups and downs with the factory 10mm mags!  How to fix them?!

I tried a bunch of parts.  Including a Glock follower, Grams Follower...many different springs, etc.  I've been working on this problem for a while now.  I've ground things down, polished ramps and done all sorts of crazy things with a dremel.  I bent a lot of springs in weird ways.  I utterly destroyed 5 factory magazines and ruined 6 Wolff magazine springs.

Geez, I was making things harder than what they really were.  Well, just a few minutes ago I found the combination of parts that solved the problem...

10mm magazines that work:

- Wolff Extra Power Magazine Spring.
- .40 S&W follower from the 12 round .40 S&W magazine factory part:  EA40M

- 10mm factory magazine body.


This combination will hold the slide back on the last round!  It will also hold 15 rounds with the help of my UpLula.  (I'm using +5% mag springs.  I bet the +10% will work, too.) You don't even have to modify the followers.

EA40M uses followers of notably higher quality.  The magazines themselves are made for full size steel pistols using the small frame.  I'm reusing the factory pad and magazine floor pate from the 10mm magazines.

I do not know if all followers designed for small frame pistols will work.  I can only tell you that those from EA40M do.  I will try and get a few small frame followers to confirm the results.

Henning sells the small frame magazine followers for $5 each.

http://henningshootsguns.com/shop/magparts.html

The 10mm mags will no longer feed .40 S&W after the modification.  

However, oddly enough, I have found that factory follower and a Wolff Extra Power Magazine Spring feeds .40 S&W reliably from the factory 10mm magazines.  In fact, this set up works a lot better the the .40 S&W with the block in the front.

My recipe for a working .40 S&W mag...

- 10mm magazine with factory follower
- Wolff Extra Power Magazine Spring

 
Edit:  Don't forget to give the first coil in the Wolff spring an upward bend with a pair of needle nose pliers just like the factory magazine.  It promotes better feeding in .40 S&W and will allow the 10mm magazines with the small follower to lock the slide back on an empty mag.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 10:00:15 PM by user1979 »

Offline user1979

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #1 on: September 12, 2010, 06:19:59 PM »
Ok, I tried another small frame follower with good results.  I'm fairly confident that any small frame follower is likely to fix the problem.

I have a .41 AE magazine like this one...

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/wit40sw41aco.html

This is the older style black follower.

With this follower installed the magazines do feed.  However, that mags can now hold only 14 rounds.  The orange follower from the other small frame magazine works better, in my opinion.  

The black follower can also slip between the mag lips if pressed.  The orange follower won't.  That said, it appeared to have no impact on reliability.

BTW.  Does anyone want to buy three small frame magazines minus their followers?!  I'll give you a good deal!  All of them are brand new, never used.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2010, 06:24:11 PM by user1979 »

Offline eric0424

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2010, 01:15:01 AM »
Just wanted to check the results of the magazine issue you've been having.  How did range testing go with the rebuilt magazines??  Have you tried the extractor mods Rod Slinger recommended in your other thread??

Offline Scott 10mm

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #3 on: November 03, 2010, 03:38:37 PM »
I have a Q?
                 I just bought a witness compact 10mm a couple months ago. before shooting it for the first time, I added a 20lb recoil spring & a wolff extra power firing pin spring. I took it out and the 4th shell (DT 180's) hung up. it looked as if the shell hit the top of the chamber to high. I hand cycled it and the shell went the rest of the way. The mags I have use the RED follower, I got 2 extra when I bought the gun.. they all seem to hand cycle very smoothly without a hiccup. are these mags any good? there factory ones. wondering also if I should break the gun in with the stock recoil spring? but geez 14lb dual spring seems awfully weak for a 10mm. I have an 18,20 & 22lb if needed. I just dont want any issues with it. its the best feeling pistol I own esp with my missing right index finger, it fits like a glove if you can believe that.

does the 45ACP have the mag issues too?

I was surprised to see this happen and i'm considering purchasing the 45ACP conversion, as I do alot of reloading for both 10 & 45.

Scott
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Offline user1979

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #4 on: November 03, 2010, 05:31:35 PM »
Hi Scott,

I've since developed a technique that works a little better and it's easier using either .45 ACP Mec-Gar or .38 Super Mec-Gar mags for the Witness...

http://www.czforumsite.info/index.php?PHPSESSID=076d1cea8749a9a18b3a12643d6996fe&topic=34651.0

All you do is remove the spring and follower from the Mec-Gar mag (.38 super and .45 ACP happen to use the same follower) and re-use the factory magazine body. Heck the follower alone might do the trick, I just don't have any factory springs on hand to confirm. So far not range tested, but will hand cycle hollow points.  It also hand cycles with .40 S&W FMJ.

No, I haven't had a chance to fire the pistol in 10mm, yet.  It's been away at the gunsmith for some other work.  I got it back recently and immediately went to tinkering with the 10mm mags, even though I had just bought a .38 super conversion.

I will tell you that the extractor was not an issue in my pistol.   The problem with my pistol was magazine related.  Namely the rounds were nose diving in the magazine.  You'll find lots of reports of the same thing all over the web, just do a Google search.

I could duplicate the problem with the magazine OUT of the pistol.  Just push the rounds out of the magazine and you'd see them nose dive and catch on the mag body.  (Yes, I tried filing the mag body down.  It helped, but did not stop the jams.)  The problem can be traced an improperly designed follower.

All of the factory 10mm mags I purchased wouldn't even chamber or hand cycle if filled with more than 5 or 6 rounds.  (The .40 S&W mags weren't any better!)  If filled to capacity the mag would lose control of the top round as well.  Not acceptable.

Anyway, you could buy the Mec-Gar .45 ACP mag and give it a shot.  Best case, you fix the pistol.  Worse case, you convert to .45 ACP and have a high quality magazine to rely on.

I am testing the pistol this weekend in .40 S&W, .38 Super and 10mm.  

Right now all I have is a 16 lbs Wolff spring for the 10mm/.40 S&W combo.  I'm a little concerned about beating up the pistol with 10mm loads.  However, I did install an 18 lbs hammer spring which does give some extra resistance over the factory 16 lbs hammer spring.  

My loads aren't too hot.  180 grain bullets chronograph from my Glock 20 at an average of 1185 fps.  (10.2 grains blue dot, Winchester primer, plated bullet)  Henning recommends a 16 lbs spring for 10mm, 18 lbs for heavy 10mm and 20 lbs for very heavy 10mm.

If the brass goes a little too far for my taste, then I'm not going to push it this weekend with the 10mm loads.  I'll post some results on Saturday or Sunday night.  





« Last Edit: November 03, 2010, 05:43:29 PM by user1979 »

Offline jwc007

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 01:51:28 AM »
does the 45ACP have the mag issues too?

Not in my experience, but I do use the Wolff +10% magazine Springs in mine, as my IPSC shooting habit wore out the original springs after some time of shooting.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda

Offline user1979

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Range test results!
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2010, 06:11:48 PM »
Ok,  I went out today with a .38 Super Compact slide, .40 S&W long slide (original to my match pistol) and one 10mm barrel for the long slide model.  The frame is a Witness Match single action.  In tow were two Mec-Gar .38 Super mags and one of my "fixed" 10mm magazines, using a Mec-Gar follower and spring.

Results...

.38 Super:

- Mec-Gar .38 Super magazines fed and functioned perfectly.  The box says they hold 17 rounds, it's actually 18!

- Reloaded using Wolf primers.  My class III subgun will digest these all day.  The Witness doesn't like them.  Numerous failures to fire.  It's not the pistol, either, my brother's J-frame Smith hates the primers too.  Now that I can get US primers I'll be sticking to those!

- Using an 18 lbs recoil spring and a 18 lbs hammer spring is a little too heavy for this pistol even with a compact slide firing .38 Super.  Nothing that made the gun unreliable, but brass was ejecting only three feet or so from me.  I'll let the spring break in a little more and see what happens.  If the heavier spring messes with reliability, then I'll drop down to a 16 lbs spring.

- .38 Super is loud.  I didn't chronograph my rounds this afternoon, but they were booking.  Love this cartridge.

.40 S&W:

- Fired and fed 100 rounds from the fixed 10mm mags.  No problems.  I filled them to capacity, which is 14 rounds after the modification.  Recoil was nothing.  Accuracy was great.  Some second strikes thanks to crappy Wolf primers.  Rounds would feed as fast I could pull the trigger.

- 16 lbs recoil spring and 18 lbs spring is too heavy for this pistol.  The spent cases were dropping very close to my feet.  One round short stroked the pistol and caused the pistol not to enter into battery.  This was not mag related at all.  The spent piece of brass was ejected about a foot from me.  

- I've installed a 12 lbs recoil spring from Wolff and removed the 16 lbs recoil spring.  The load I was shooting probably has a power factor of 162 to 170 using 155 grain plated bullets.

10mm:

- The new magazines fed my reloads as fast as I could fired them.  No duds or second strikes, since I was using Winchester primers for this load!  (Same slide as the .40 S&W, as I said, it's not the pistol!) No jams, no nose diving rounds.  Magazines hold 14 rounds in 10mm after being fixed.

- I own and love the Glock 20.  The people online must be smoking something when they say the G20 is the lightest recoiling 10mm.  The much heavier Witness has far less recoil.

- Combination of 16 lbs recoil spring and 18 lbs hammer spring felt just right for the pistol when firing 10mm.  (My reloads are 180 grains and about 1200 fps from my G20.)  

- The brass was launched into LEO.  Brass flew from the pistol about at upwards of 10 or 15 feet from the pistol.  Some say the ejector is too long on these pistols for 10mm.  I'm not sure.  I may try a heavier spring, but in reality, will probably just stick with the Glock 20 for 10mm.

Bottom line:  The magazine fix works and works well.  My plan is to modify my remaining 10mm mag body with a Mec-Gar follower and spring mainly for .40 S&W shooting.  I'll also be trying some hollow points in the future.  Last month I was ready to throw my pistol from my balcony.  I think now I'm going to keep it.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2010, 06:55:25 PM by user1979 »

Offline jwc007

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2010, 09:05:35 PM »
Very Interesting!  Glad things are working well now.  8)
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda

Offline Gary1911A1

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2010, 02:48:00 PM »
I also have a Glock 20 and don't understand people saying it's the lightest recoiling pistol in 10MM. ??? To me it's one of hardest recoiling. I'd rather shoot one of my 1911s' in 10MM. The Witness and Bren with their CZ type grip feel even better.

Offline Scott 10mm

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2010, 12:12:50 PM »
User1979,
               thanks for all that info. I'm headed out this weekend with the factory recoil spring in the witness and see how it works with a few of my other reloads, nothing too hot. ive got some 180's doin about 1150fps, some 165's at around 1250 and also have some HOT 200's goin nearly 1200 :-).

its interesting to hear how others think the G20 is a hard recoiler. I use a sprinco recoil system (CORbon) in mine and it really cut it down, but even when stock, it feels no worse to me than a .40 S&W. the witness with its 1" shorter barrel has more of a snap feel to me than the G20, maybe im just used to it. LOL but I have a video of myself shooting the G20 and several have said the gun shows little recoil. I also found the Agrips work well too, sounds odd i know that grips would help recoil, but they do.

if I have any hiccups this weekend, im going to throw that 40 S&W follower in these mags along with a +10 wolff spring.

My Colt .38 Super is prob my most accurate, but with it being so rare, I dont dare run many more rnds thru it, but dam I love that round.
My G21SF is hands down the most consistent shooter I have. I'm hoping to replace it with the witness as my carry piece, but alot has to happen with the witness for that to take place, but I have my fingers crossed.

Scott
give a man a fish, feed him for a day
teach a man to fish, feed him for life

Offline Scott 10mm

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #10 on: November 16, 2010, 05:24:10 PM »
User1979,
              I went out this last weekend and had a few nose dives with the red follower mags, so I'm going to use the follower from the MecGar 45ACP mag.

question? mine is a compact 10mm so do I need the follower from a mecgar 45acp/38 super for the witness fullsize? or a compact?  do you happen to know where I can get just the follower if possible?

Thank You
Scott
give a man a fish, feed him for a day
teach a man to fish, feed him for life

Offline SDDLUP

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2010, 10:58:17 PM »
I'd like to see the Italian that can get 15 rounds into one of my factory mags!  Wow!  It's all I can do to get 14 in them.  I won't have the gun for another week or so to actually see how they feed.

Will the 40 S&W follower alone allow you to get 15 rounds in the magazine?

Offline DenStinett

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #12 on: January 08, 2011, 09:14:51 PM »
Quote
10mm magazines that work:
- Wolff Extra Power Magazine Spring.
- .40 S&W follower from the 12 round .40 S&W magazine factory part:  EA40M
- 10mm factory magazine body.
Here’s my question;
If Wolff doesn’t carry mag springs for the 10mm, what mag springs are you using?
Thanks for the info
Shoot safe, Den S

Offline jwc007

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #13 on: January 08, 2011, 09:35:33 PM »
If Wolff doesn’t carry mag springs for the 10mm, what mag springs are you using?

AFAIK, There is only one size of Wolff Magazine Spring for the Tanfoglio/Witness Pistols, just varying degrees of strength.  That's the way it was on my last order, anyways.
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Offline DenStinett

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Re: The fix for 10mm mags was actually easy!
« Reply #14 on: January 09, 2011, 01:47:07 AM »
The last thing I want to do is start an argument here, but according to Wolff
(link)  http://www.gunsprings.com/index.cfm?page=items&cID=1&mID=19#853
Quote:
Magazine Springs
Magazine springs are available in +5% and +10% extra power.  Extra power magazine springs help improve feeding with extra power recoil springs and when factory springs have weakened.
For use in:
  AT-84, CZ-75*, TZ-75, P-9, EAA Witness - Standard & Longslides - All Caliber's Except 10mm
So there lies my confusion
If I’m misunderstanding this, I’m sorry
Shoot safe all, Den S

 

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