Author Topic: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?  (Read 3306 times)

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Offline billjohnso20

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9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« on: January 01, 2011, 01:32:29 AM »
 
This is for the seasoned reloaders on this board. I need some help.

With a phone call yesterday that my CZ-82 I sent for plating 3 MONTHS AGO :o is on its way home to me, I decided to load up some range ammo so I can take it to the range and put it through its paces. ;D
 
Anyway, I've been reloading now for a couple of years. With my acquisition of two CZ-82s, I've expanded to reloading the 9x18 Mak round. Up till yesterday, I was using the Hodgdon data at http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp. My load has been on the low side with Berry Bullets 95gr FMJ/Hodgdon        HP-38 3.4gr/Magtech 1 1/2 pistol primers. Last night I decided to use my Hornady 7th edition manual since I had a small amount of Alliant Unique I want to get rid of. But that's not the issue.
 
The issue deals with the fact that Hodgdon HP-38 and Winchester 231 are the same powder. I decided to look at my Speer 14th edition manual to see if the Speer manual had any Unique load data but it didn't. However, the load data for W231 caught my eye. In the Speer manual the load for a 95gr FMJ 9x18 Mak starts at 3.9gr of 231 with a max load of 231 being 4.4gr. Conversely, the Hornady manual has a start load of 3.3gr and a max load of 3.8gr which is the identical to the load data on the Hodgdon site for HP-38. Shocked The only difference in the load data is that Hornady put an XTP bullet on top and the Speer puts a FMJ on top of the load. Everything I find on line whether a HP or FMJ is used gives me the power load data of 3.3/3.4gr to 3.8gr of W231/HP-38.
 
Now, I've no doubt the CZ-82 with its all steel construction could handle the the higher pressures of the Speer data. The recoil of the blowback auto-loader would be fierce though. However, I doubt the various actual Makarov pistols out there could handle the pressure for long since the actual Makarov pistols are lighter than the CZ-82 is. BUT I'm still surprised to see that the Speer manual has the data it has.
 
What do you seasoned reloaders think?
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Offline Thren68

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2011, 03:36:35 PM »
Same thing we always say.  Start low and work up carefully.  Run it over a chronograph if possible.

Technically some FMJ's should have a higher charge than JHP's.  For the same weight, the mass missing out of the JHP hollow has to go somewhere.  Adding a little extra length to the bullet is often where.  Which takes up more case volume and increases pressure, needing a reduced power charge to keep everything in balance.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: 9x18 Mak attack
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2011, 06:01:21 PM »
I'm not a "seasoned reloader", although lately my wife has been sprinkling salt, pepper, and a little cumin on me.  ;D

Never-the-less, here are my thoughts...

Reason 1
Everyone knows HP-38 and Win231 are the same, right? Well, yes and no. These powders are all blended. That is to say, if you bought the same powder in 6 months it might not be the same. That's why people who are really into shooting buy the 8 lb can. There's simply more consistency than buying eight 1 lb cans.

Think of it this way, imaging you're the Campbell Soup Co making something as ubiquitous as tomato soup. Sure you have a recipe and computer controlled cooking, but still last week's soup still might be more brilliant red and have slightly less salt. And too, Campbell is always bowing to "taste dejour" so salt content has probably been creeping downward for the last 15 years.

This is another reason why you can't go buy the much cheaper 1970 reloading manuals. The powder formulations have really changed over the last 20 years. Conversely, if you were given 100 lbs of free HP-38 made in 1970, you'd need to buy an older manual to use it safely !!  

Long story longer, if the powders were made 6 months apart they are probably not the exact same. Close, but not the same.

Reason 2
When you're reloading the MAIN thing to control is chamber pressure so the gun doesn't blow up in your hand. Although lots of things contribute to chamber pressure, the 2 main culprits are the amount of powder and the space it has to burn in (in other words, the volume inside the cartridge case under the bullet). Now as any fool can plainly see, you cannot measure to the base of the bullet once it's seated. So we talk in terms of OAL which is a measurement we can control. Never the less, it doesn't tell us directly how much volume is under the bullet. Follow?

Along the same lines as "Under ObummerCare the price of medical care will go down." If you repeat a lie often enough, then some poor soul will actually believe it !! In the same vein, reloaders are really lying to ourselves and each other. And every once in awhile, after throwing around the term "OAL" like it really means anything, one of us slips up and really begins to believe it's important !! What we really want to know is: OAL minus the bullet length, as shown below....



If you understand this train of thought so far, then you can see that the length of the bullet, a dimension no one ever mentions, is critical to the proper understanding for the chamber pressure. So whenever I see "the same load" in different books that have wide variations then I know something else is going on, like 2 widely different bullet lengths.


Closing
When you see how widely loads from different books can vary, you start to get an indication of why it's so important to begin loading at the "starting load" and work up. Starting 10% below the max load has been shown to fully account for the 2 big variations above and a host of other variables still unmentioned.

All the best.  ;)

« Last Edit: January 01, 2011, 07:35:32 PM by rfwobbly1 »
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Offline eric0424

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2011, 06:52:42 PM »
When in doubt you should always use the safer load and work up if there are no signs of excessive pressure, swelled cases, loose primers, hard recoil etc.  The reason we start with published data is because these rounds have been tested with a specific bullet, primer, powder, charge, cartridge length and, in some cases, the amount of crimp.  Anything beyond what has been tested is uncharted waters, but we can get a general idea of where to start by using the published data as a guide.  Some other things to take notice of are COL, bullet type and velocity of the recipes you're comparing. 

A start charge of 3.3 (Hornady 7th) and 3.4 (Hodgdon web site) are not the same, and I don't think the Win. 231 and HP-38 are the same either, although they are #28 (HP-38) and #29 (231) on one burn rate chart, but #39 (Win. 231) and #43 (HP-38) on another and #22 (HP-38) and #23 (Win 231) on a third.  I can't find data on the Berry's plated 95gr FMJ and the powder you or I plan to use.  With me it's Blue Dot, Green Dot, Bullseye and maybe Hodgdon Clays.  I will probably start with the Speer 95gr FMJ Bullseye data, but would like to know how long the Speer 95gr FMJ bullets are before loading the Berry's. 

The load data from Hodgdon and Hornady are not identical even if we exclude the fact that one is for 231 and the other is for HP-38, 231 @ 3.3-3.8 and HP-38 @ 3.4-3.8 are not the same.  Both loads are using Hornady's XTP bullet and the max charge and bullet weight are the same, but the velocity of these two loads are not.  Honady's 7th/231 data has a velocity of 800-950fps where the Hodgdon/HP-38 data has velocity of 900-990fps, that's a change or 150fps with 231 and only 90fps with the HP-38.  Hornady's 231 data doesn't reach 900fps until 3.6grs, but Hodgdon/HP-38 hits 900 at 3.3grs.  Although cartridge length is as close to the same as you'll get with the .001" difference.  Hornady/231 is using Winchester SP primers and Hodgdon/HP-38 doesn't say what primer was used.  It's possible the primer could have effected the total charge if one is hotter than the other, it's also possible the that the amount of crimp changed the pressure.   

Cartridge length will have some effect on the powder charge, actual bullet length may effect the cartridge length, both will effect usable case volume and all of these will effect pressure.  I don't have a Speer 95gr FMJ Makarov to check but the Hornady 95gr XTP is .007" (.420") shorter than the Berry's 95gr FMJ (.427") I have.  If you load both of these to the same OAL there will be less usable case volume (.007") in the case with the Berry's FMJ and pressure will be higher. 

My Speer #13 manual lists the same 3.9 - 4.4gr load as your #14 manual, but cartridge length was tested at .980" with the Speer FMJ, Hornady 7th Edition tested their 3.3 - 3.8gr load at .964" with the XTP bullet.  The .016" difference in length could be the reason the Hornady load has a lighter charge, but I would need the Speer FMJ bullet length to know.  You should also notice the Speer data lists a max velocity of 1029fps, while the Hornady lists their st 950fps.  Hornady tested their load with the Winchester SP primer and Speer used the CCI 500.  Neither one of these manuals lists data for the Makarov and HP-38 powder and I don't recommend using 231 data with the HP-38 powder.

My Lee manual does have Makarov data with the HP-38 powder, the 95gr XTP and OAL of .965".  Lee's data is 3.4 - 3.8gr of HP-38, with velocity at 891 - 990fps and max pressure at 24,000PSI.  This load was nearly identical to the Hodgdon web site, with the exception of 9-fps slower start velocity in the Lee manual, but both are for the same powder, bullet weight, powder charge and COL and neither mentioned what primer was used.  Nothing on Win. 231 powder or a 95gr FMJ in my Lee manual.  If you use this data with the Berry's plated bullets you will be .007" short on case capacity compared to using the XTP bullet that was tested.

The one cartridge I checked that was using both the 231 and HP-38 powders was in my Lee manual on the 9mm Luger and a 124gr jacketed bullet.  The HP-38 is 4.4 - 4.8grs with OAL at 1.090" and velocity of 1008 - 1088fps.  The 231 is 4.2 - 4.5grs with OAL at 1.095 and velocity of 1005 - 1060fps.  The HP-38 load used more powder, less case capacity and was nearly the same velocity.  This is enough for me to not use the 231 data with HP-38 or HP-38 data with 231.  If these are the same powder I would expect the .2 - .3gr increase in powder and the .005" reduction in case volume to create more pressure and higher muzzle velocity.  The Lee manual did list the max load pressure, but one was in CUP (HP-38 @ 28,800) and the other was in PSI (Win. 231 @ 32,700) and I don't know of a way to convert one to the other.

This is what Berry's has to say about loading their plated bullets.  Not much, they also recommend keeping their bullets under 1200fps.  You may be able to get more information from Berry's if you call or e-mail them.

Offline SMSgt

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #4 on: January 02, 2011, 10:53:40 AM »
I tend to follow powder-makers' data over bullet-makers' data. If a tire maker's data says use "X" psi in its tires and the auto maker says use "Y" psi, which do you choose? Think Ford versus Firestone.

Regardless, standard reloading precautions should apply--start light, increase carefully.

I shoot 93 grain LRNs in my CZ-82 and have yet to find a table for that bullet. I split the Hodgdon HP-38 data evenly between the listed 90 and 95 grain FMJ bullets, started at the bottom end, and have not had any issue or signs of problems.

I also use trimmed 9mm Luger cases for my Mak, so for safety and practical reasons I never bother with "hot" loads in any caliber), mid-range powder loads are about as potent as I get for punching holes in paper.

The only difference between 231 and HP-38 I've found so far (Okay, let's assume it's not manufactured 10 years ago and is of recent "blending") is the price. HP seems to be about $2 a lb cheaper.
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Offline painter

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #5 on: January 02, 2011, 11:27:03 AM »
Being an addicted web searcher....[bang head]

I found this conversion for CUP to psi and the reverse.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?topic=28794.0;wap2

Like the man says...it isn't precise
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Offline RandyP

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #6 on: January 02, 2011, 02:52:56 PM »
Per the good folks at Hodgdon who I have personally contacted (and I will infer could actually know what they are talking about) HP-38 and Win 231 are the SAME, yes the SAME, and I do mean the SAME powder that is poured into two differently labelled containers. If you don't believe me, and why should you? -lol - you too can use that there EEEEEElectronical internets mail thingee and ask them yer own darn self.

You are 100% safe using load data for a given bullet that used HP-38 if your jug has the Win 231 label on it instead. Presuming it's a recent load manual and recently made powders. There are a few other Hodgdon distributed powders that match Win vs HP, but I forget the numbers. A quick web search should yield them if you are so inclined.

OAL can also be misleading even for plain old round-nosed bullets because different makes do not share the exact same 'shape' of the curve of the round nose so they will contact the seating die differently.

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Offline Wobbly

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #7 on: January 02, 2011, 03:16:19 PM »
We've either scared the pants off Bill Johnso20 or he is still trying to digest all the above.   :o

I know Sasquatch almost ran off and became a monk after his first question!  ;D
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Offline billjohnso20

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #8 on: January 02, 2011, 07:23:52 PM »
We've either scared the pants off Bill Johnso20 or he is still trying to digest all the above.   :o

I know Sasquatch almost ran off and became a monk after his first question!  ;D
Nope. Y'all ain't run me off. I've been talking to some others about this topic. As was pointed out by another poster, HP-38 and W231 are indeed the exact same powder. Why the price difference? All Winchester powder costs more. You're really paying for the name. According to my sources, H110 & W296 are the same as of 2008 as is HP-38 & W231. There was a time that was not the case but it is now.

Thank you to all of you who offered answers to my question. I'm still learning since at present I only load, .380, .327 Fed Mag, 9mm, 9x18 Mak, and 40S&W.
"A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed."

What part of "shall not be infringed" do you not understand?

Offline SMSgt

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #9 on: January 04, 2011, 09:35:45 AM »
Only? :D
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #10 on: January 04, 2011, 12:18:55 PM »
Looks to me like Bill chooses his calibers carefully so he won't have to ever change his shell holder.   ;D

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Offline eric0424

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Re: 9x18 Mak reloading question. Which data?
« Reply #11 on: January 04, 2011, 04:49:02 PM »
Being an addicted web searcher....[bang head]

I found this conversion for CUP to psi and the reverse.

http://www.marlinowners.com/forums/index.php?topic=28794.0;wap2

Like the man says...it isn't precise

Thanks for the link, I read a few of my loading manuals and they say there's now formula for a conversion.  It looks like they just don't want to use the ballpark figures gained from the conversion method above.  I did find some more information on this conversion formula, but it's kind of long.  The chart on page 3 is interesting though, SAAMI published some pressure in both CUP and PSI with several rifle cartridges.  This also gave me a chance to build a conversion chart in Excel to do the math.

http://www.shootingsoftware.com/ftp/psicuparticle2.pdf

 

anything