Author Topic: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness  (Read 13564 times)

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Offline notjustanothermini

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How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« on: June 15, 2011, 12:21:11 AM »
Hello,

     This is a thread i am starting, for informational purposes only, NOT OPEN FOR DISCUSSION!! The purpose of this thread will be for me and others, to post about the recoil setups they use, spring weights, rod choice, etc. ammo used, wheather reloaded or factory (including double tap, and buffalo bore) and the corresponding spring weights used.

     I welcome everyone, guy or gal, to shout out their system of choice, wheather it is a 100% factory setup or not. please if you post any thing, let us know the round count of the gun, prior to , if any modification on the recoil system, and round count through the gun after the mods have been done. also if you have any recomendations for ammo/spring weights combinations that worked for you. 

     PLEASE NO REHASHING OF OLD  B.S. as we need a sticky, or some wealth of information on this topic, other than 2 page onlg threads with a lot of opinion. facts here based on YOUR OWN experience ONLY!!

    And Please do not mention, in any way shape or form, "Crack Dreams". you know what i mean. and keep it informative and to the point.

thanks,
NJAM
   

Offline Rod Slinger

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2011, 01:11:31 AM »
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=34042.msg187837#msg187837     You might want to check out this post from a year ago.  R S





Remembering Bill Ruger. 
"I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.  Thomas Jefferson

Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2011, 09:15:39 AM »
okay lets get started.

there are a few options out there for buffering the recoil on a eaa witness, all of whicdh are pretty good to great.

starting with the basics.

one could order a wolf recoil XP (extra power pak) with a 16 18 20 22 pound springs and use these with the factory guide rod, which a ton of people do and have no problems at all, as i have HEARD of folks using a 22# spring in 9mm!!  to me that seems not right, like the gun wouldn't work, but i have read some do, as i have read some use a 8-9# spring in 9mm,  with this info one might say "what gives"?

i don't know, but there is a such thing as over springing a gun, which in turn creates the same problem as under springing a gun, IE--> the slide being blown back with such force, at its rear most position, it has a tremendous amount of stored kinetic energy, and when it slams back forward, you have the slide slamming just as hard in its forward movement, as the impact of a under sprung gun as the slide moves rearward after being fired.

half a dozen either way you look at it.

so some guys are perfectly content with a switch in recoil spring weight to the next size up and the gun runs fine. others like me, are never satisfied with anything, and watn the ultimate everything and anything.

i use, as stated before, a hennings cone-fit guide rod, matched spring weight for the load/caliber i shoot, along with a buffer tech recoil buffer pad thing. when i first installed this system i used the henning rod, with the factory 10mm spring, and the buffer installed. i would hand cycle the gun empty, no bullets. and i for the life of me, could not get the slide to hold open, or in other words, the slide catch notch was now to far forward of the slide catch/take down pin. it was attributed to the extra length the buffer added. so i began cutting the factory recoil spring, half a coil at a time, untill the slide would hold open. i ended up shortening the factory spring about a 1/4 inch or so, and then the slide would lock back.

so then i came here to ask if cutting coils of a spring changed it weight, i was sure it did but wanted confirmation, which i could not get, i needed to know did it maybe up the weight or decrease the weight, common sense would tell you it would decrease it not so, here read

Popular wisdom" rules. Cutting coils does increase the spring rate. Let me explain why.

The strength of a spring, leaf or coil is a function of the cube of the steel used. Keeping with the subject of your question, coil springs, the diameter of the wire and the length of the wire will give us the amount of steel used.

For this whole discussion we will be talking about springs with the same wire diameter and the same inside diameter. The only thing that will change will be the length of the wire used to wind the spring.

The longer the wire is the lower the spring rate. As the wire get shorter, such as when cutting the coil, the spring rate increases.

So everyone has a clear understanding lets describe what "rate" is. Rate is the amount of weight it takes to deflect a spring one Inch.

A very common mistake is to think that spring rate is how much a spring supports. How much weight a spring is designed to support is called "Load" or "Designed Load" or"Load Rate". This is cover in Spring Tech 101.

Rate and Load Rate are two totally different animals.

The calculation to find the rate of a coil spring is:

11,250,000 times the wire diameter to the 4th power divided by 8 times the active number of turns times the mean diameter cubed.

Active turns are the number of turns of the spring that do not touch anything. Any part of the coil which makes contact with anything becomes inactive, that is it no longer functions as part of the spring.

The mean diameter is the inside coil diameter plus one wire thickness. Or the outside coil diameter less one wire thickness.

Let's say for example a 1967 Mustang GT front spring is made from .610 wire and has an inside diameter of 3.875" and has a free height of16.145" (not installed) and is deflected down to 10.5" (load height) when loaded to 1,519 Lbs. (load rate) This spring has a spring rate of 269 Lbs.

This spring has 9.33 total coils but 1.33 coils touch the spring seat so they are inactive leaving 8 active turns. (I know this from the Ford blue print).

The mean diameter is 3.875 + .610 (The inside is the important diameter because it is the inside of the spring which is used to locate the spring on the corresponding suspension parts. The outside diameter is not considered because it will change with a change of wire diameter)

Do the math-

11,250,000 x (.610 x .610 x .610 x .610) / 8 x 8 active turns x (4.485 x 4.485 x 4.485) = 269 Lbs.

Double check the math - 16.145 - 10.5 = 5.645 deflection. 1,519/5.645 = 269

Now if we cut say 1/2 turn off this spring the active turns become 7.5.

So 11,250,000 x (.610 x .610 x .610 x .610) / 8 x 7.5 x (4.485 x 4.485 x 4.485) = 287 Lbs.

While the rate is increased the load is unchanged. Rate is the amount of weight required to deflect the spring one Inch while load is the amount of weight the spring will support at a given height.

Cutting coils is limited to those types which have tangential ends. Tangential ends are those which spiral off into space. If you tried to stand the spring on end it would fall over.

more to come


Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2011, 11:29:11 AM »
so now that that little spring primer is out of the way. lets continue.

okay like i said above, i use the hinnings rod, buffer tech buffer and proper spring for caliber or power factor.

the hennings guide rod, has a bevel on it, which put the force of the recoil in a linear manner a full 360 degrees around the area called front insert ( witness P parts diagram) the steel guns have this also, but it is part of the frame and there is no Part number or name for it in the steel gun diagram.   i call it the cam-block. and it will be referred to as the "cam-block" from here on out. 

the factory guide rod when installed puts it force of recoil against the barrel where the slide pin goes through, the front part of that is where the rod rests against. with hennings the force is not put on the barrel but the frame instead. also on the factory rod, when you install a buffer tech buffer, the buffer rests against the front of the "cam-block" and is a buffer betweent he front of the slide and frame. with the hennings it make sthe buffer sit just enough to completely put if off the frame. and instead it leaves a 1/16th of an inch or so between the buffer and frame (cam block). so it changes thing significantly.

i use this hennings rod, buffer tech buffer, and 18-22 lbs springs depending on "hotness" i use 22 for super hot double tap and swamp fox "fully supported chamber loads, i use the 20 for some double tap, and all cor-bon, and the 18 for Winchester super X silver tips.  and for anything else 10mm i use the 16 lbs spring. federal ammo is way underpowered, and hence gets the 16 lbs spring.

now the buffer tech buffer. these things have a pretty much "set in stone" way of getting the crap chewed out of them in the first box of bullets you shoot, and needs replaced. at $10+SHIPPING each these are not cheap. but with the hennings rod, they stay fine, show virtually no wear, i have over 250 rounds of hot 10mm and bout 70 or so of hot .40sw through the gun with the same buffer tech buffer, and it is no worse for wear.

in closing on the setup i use, like i said earlier, you can jsut use the factory rod, no buffer and jsut a heavier spring, and be all good, good as in the gun shoots softer, takes less of a beating, and inturn makes you more accurate, and it jsut sounds better when shot with a heavier than factory spring. the sound im refering to is teh slide/frame impact.


Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2011, 12:04:17 PM »
now on to the "SPRINCO recoil reduction system" A.K.A. the sprinco guide rod.

simply put it is the easiest system out there for reducing recoil as it is only one part.

it is a nice solid stainless steel guide rod, with a silicone spring.

it has the traditional recoils spring, but at the base of the rod, is a secondary captive spring, this is the recoil buffer in this setup.

they can be had in two flavors, regular and "corbon"  the regular can be used for corbon, but not the other way around, they go into this aspect of the system on their web page. i wont.

when you order this, you order based on caliber of ammo being shot.

order 9mm for 9mm and .45 for .45.   the difference between them is the primary spring and secondary spring.  im sure you can order one and change both the springs according to what is being shot. haven't done it, don't own one. if some one out there does have one, please post up and let us know how you use it, or if you have changed the springs weights for other calibers. like i said i don't own one, and don't want to start throwing opinion around loosely and tell you you can convert the sprinco for other calibers, but from my mechanical mindset, it really don't think you should have a problem doing so.

i really like the sprinco unit, but when i was buying my system, i didn't quite have the money for it, it is 80 dollars plus shipping. which is not bad at all.  my setup cost me almost as much when said and done,  with the wolf spring pak, the guide rod, and buffer tech buffer, almost as much money as the sprinco.



Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2011, 12:14:52 PM »
now i described the various styles of recoil reduction systems, as best i can. i can atest for a fact that the system i use takes some tuning to get it to run right, couple the heavy recoil spring option with the fact I have less than perfect magazines, and i had a real chore on my hands to get this to run right.  the magz i have have had the mag fixes done to them, and also needed a 15% XP mag spring from wolf, to get the shells up the tube quicker, as the slide was closing quicker.

also it took about 50 or so rounds to break in the buffer, prior to the break in, the slide would not lock back, once the buffer got compressed enough it let the slide lock back when empty.  i was told i could take some metal off of the dust guard, but that IS NOT my cup of tea, i am capable, but i dont want to permanently alter the gun and force my self to have to buy buffer tech buffers all the time (althoug the one i have is going strong 300+ rounds and looks like new) i dont like to be restrained, or tied down, 100% committed to one type of setup. i like to be able to return the gun to factory if i want, and with metal taken off the dust cover, id be forced to run s buffer.

also i was told i could have opened up the notch the slide stop pin engages a little bit, which is something i would do, and probably will, as even though the slide locks back after the last shot, it is just barely catching and hard to use the slide catch to release the slide.

or you could take a spring and cut a coil or two off, but you must use a smaller weight than you really want, as stated above cutting a spring down, INCREASES the weight.

i didn't have the info about springs that i posted until today, which has a ton of info for you to be able to correctly and accurately figure out the spring weight of a spring that has been cut.


Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #6 on: June 15, 2011, 12:31:05 PM »
okay i am tapped out for what i can say for sure works.

now id like to have some members post their guns setups, factory or aftermarket, what calibers power factors and matching spring weights.

what spring weight, what caliber and hotness of the load they shoot. round count is something id like to hear about also, as it is a deciding factor for many when choosing how to modify their firearms.

remember, this is a STICKY, a go to source of info for witness owners to reference when they are modding the recoil systems of their witness'.

Offline jwc007

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #7 on: June 15, 2011, 01:41:55 PM »
For the 9mm Tanfoglio Pistols, the stock 14/15 lb Recoil Spring works just fine in most cases and I've never bothered to fuss with them much.

For the .45 ACP however, that same stock spring is okay for Target loads and most standard pressure Ammunition when it is fresh/new.  About 3000 rounds down the road however, it becomes a bit light and some higher frame impact will be noticed and that spring should be replaced.
 
My "Recoil Reduction/Spring Balancing" Methods for .45 ACP Witnesses have been as follows:

Cheap and Simple:
 A 16 lb Wolff Extra Power Recoil Spring will work very nicely with most all standard .45 ACP Ammunition and will last quite a bit longer than the Stock Recoil Spring weight.

Slightly Advanced: Standard Stock 14/15 lb Spring with a Sprinco Recoil Reducer.  This will provide a great amount of felt Recoil Reduction and quicker response time with Standard and Target Level ammunition, yet provide more frame/slide protection.  I often use this setup for IPSC Matches.

+P Level Advanced: A 16 lb Wolff Extra Power Recoil Spring with a Sprinco Recoil Reducer. This will function well with only +P level .45 ACP power level ammunition.

.45 Super Level:  An 18 lb Wolff Extra Power Recoil Spring with a Sprinco Recoil Reducer.  This is the Minimum level you would need for a .45 Super Conversion and I've found it works very well.  I use it very sparingly.  My main .45 Super loading propels a Remington 185 grn JHP at 1220 fps from the muzzle of my older Blued .45 Witness.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2011, 01:47:36 PM by jwc007 »
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2011, 04:02:52 PM »
thank you very much for your input, this is EXACTLY what i was looking for. keep 'em comin'.

i would like all bases to be convered, 9mm, .38super, 9x21, 9x23, .357sig, .40s&w, 10mm, .45acp, and .45 super.

and any wildcat conversions out there, such as the 9x25 dillon, .40super, .41ae, etc.

again thank you J-dubs, for the thorough info.

thread starting to take shape.

Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #9 on: November 20, 2011, 01:17:21 PM »
185 grain @1220= 612 lbs of energy,  thats sweet.

Offline jwc007

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #10 on: November 21, 2011, 04:27:14 PM »
185 grain @1220= 612 lbs of energy,  thats sweet.

Same loading did 1390 fps out of my 16 inch barreled Manchester Arms Mark 45 Carbine (now traded off)
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2011, 11:41:50 PM »
thats 794 pounds of energy. WOW, all over the 10mm

id like to see a .40 super thompson. that'd spit fire ey?

Offline Chief4

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #12 on: February 14, 2012, 11:41:32 AM »
OK, I've been reading how to spring the Witness but see nothing yet on the proper spring to use for a Polymer compact, 3.6" bbl. in .40 cal reloads. Change rod and spring?

Thanks
Chief4

Offline notjustanothermini

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #13 on: February 14, 2012, 05:44:14 PM »
the compact polymer frame, is already good to go.

the polymer frame and dual spring setup in the compact, is enough to buffer the recoil fairly well. IMHO

Offline Chief4

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Re: How to properly "SPRING" a EAA Witness
« Reply #14 on: February 14, 2012, 08:46:15 PM »
OK. That's good to know cause I'm picking up one this Saturday.  Any issues to look for with this model.  Whats a good belt holster or maybe concealed?