Author Topic: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down  (Read 3077 times)

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Offline Spirit 1

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Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« on: May 02, 2012, 07:54:57 PM »
A question has come up in replies at the following thread:

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=47088.0

Some, as in all but me, are saying that on a 75B series you should not be able to engage the Safety with gun cocked and Hammer lowered: that it should only engage with Hammer cocked back. On mine I can engage Safety with Hammer lowered from cocked position. The obvious question is which way should a gun in proper condition function?

I reworked the Safety when fitting the CZ85 Competition Hammer, rather than changing other parts. Safety seems to function correctly, Trigger cannot be pulled with Safety on. Engagement is not real heavy, a fairly light 'hold', and no real 'Click' like a ball & detent when engaging/disengaging.

Tell me, guys or gals, did I done screwed up my Safety?

Thanks!

Offline Bret

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #1 on: May 03, 2012, 07:20:13 PM »
You should definitely not be able to engage the manual safety when the hammer is down.  Something is wrong.  Although it may seem like it works properly this way, my concern would be that it might only work 99% of the time.  That 1% can be lethal.  BTW, the EAA Witness pistols (CZ75 clones) can have the safety engaged with the hammer down.

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #2 on: May 03, 2012, 10:57:35 PM »
Thanks for the info, Bret.

I'm not a firearms expert, or gunsmith, and don't have deep knowledge of CZ's operating system. Worked on quite a few guns over the years but as an amateur: trigger jobs, restorations, modifications and rebuilds etc. In this area with the safety I don't have expert knowledge at all. Not real sure how to positively test it either, to know for a reasonable certainty one way or the other.

Offline AbyssDncr

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #3 on: May 03, 2012, 11:32:38 PM »

I reworked the Safety when fitting the CZ85 Competition Hammer, rather than changing other parts. Safety seems to function correctly, Trigger cannot be pulled with Safety on. Engagement is not real heavy, a fairly light 'hold', and no real 'Click' like a ball & detent when engaging/disengaging.

I did the same thing with my SP01 with the same results.  No negative results whatsoever, but I don't actually carry with a competition hammer installed either, so no potential "lethal" issues lurking in my future either...
SP-01, P-01, CZ-75 Compact, CZ-75 Kadet, CZ-40B, CZ-83 Nickel, CZ-52, CZ-70, CZ-50, CZ 700 Sniper,  CZ 527 Kevlar, CZ 452 Ultra Lux, CZ 452 American 16", CZ 452 Scout, CZ V22 AR Upper, Sar K2

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #4 on: May 03, 2012, 11:42:12 PM »
Thanks for that. I'm the only one with access to this firearm and of course if others were to shoot it or handle it I'm there, to caution etc. I don't carry cocked & locked either, so the actual 'danger' is minimal, virtually non-existent. It was just bugging me after comments on the other thread and was hoping for a gunsmith or similar CZ pro to verify one way or the other.

Offline Bret

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #5 on: May 04, 2012, 09:31:24 AM »
I'm the only one with access to this firearm and of course if others were to shoot it or handle it I'm there, to caution etc. I don't carry cocked & locked either, so the actual 'danger' is minimal, virtually non-existent.
Unfortunately, we won't all live forever.  Whenever I make a modification to one of my guns that it might be important for someone else to know, I put a note in the case indicating exactly what was changed.  For example, I typically put 20Lb or 22Lb recoil springs in my CZ75 Compacts.  I put a little note in their cases indicating the date and the spring that was installed.  I think that doing something similar is a good idea.  At the least it will remind you of what you did. 

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #6 on: May 04, 2012, 10:05:38 AM »
Sometimes the best ideas are the simple ones, and that's a really great idea! I'll put a note in the CZ case today, and leave another note describing any changes to other firearms around here, thanks! Posterity thanks you too...

After making changes, I do recall the first time I tried to engage safety with pistol cocked, hammer down. It was stiff but I didn't know it shouldn't engage. Tried it a couple of times thinking it should engage, but no go. Then pressed a little harder and it finally engaged against resistance, not feeling quite right. After a few more tries it engaged better and now it's easier.

I wonder what constitutes a good test of the relative safety of this 'safety'? I'd think that just because it does engage with hammer down doesn't necessarily mean it's unsafe as such? There may be a rather broad threshold there with some leeway before an unsafe condition occurs? Need to find out what all, specifically, the safety is supposed to do, and how it's supposed to do it.

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #7 on: May 04, 2012, 11:24:41 AM »
Stripped it down to take a peekaboo, inspect gun & refresh my frazzled excuse for a memory. Going to be hard to describe.

The safety detent plunger seems to work marginally at best. Without hammer cocked, with safety on, double action pull moves hammer back almost to 1/2 cock position, no farther, cannot get to, or past 1/2 cock. With hammer cocked, safety on, trigger pull does nothing to fire gun regardless of force, short of breaking trigger parts.

When gun was brand new, no work done at all, safety had a very light touch to engage/disengage, not a strong detent as I'd expected, was somewhat concerned by that. I'd guess it took 4-4.5 lbs force to engage/disengage, no real solid 'click' of the detent when moving safety on/off. With work done the safety engages roughly the same, but disengage is lighter. Without hammer cocked it requires maybe 3-3.5 lbs force to disengage safety. With hammer cocked it only requires about 3 lbs force or less to disengage safety, that bothers me!

Have to say, the gun is now unsafe to carry 'cocked & locked'. I don't carry that way, as I lower hammer from full cock to half cock or all the way lowered and engage safety for carry.

First I'll try to see if I can cause safety detent plunger to have a stronger engagement. There appears to be a little groove in safety shaft for detent to engage, but it misses it. Possibly it always did, can't say for sure. First I'll try to remedy that, maybe see if enough material is there to cut a new groove, but I doubt there is. If that can't be done effectively then it looks like a new safety is required here.

Thanks for assistance, any further advice or comment welcome of course.


Offline 75Plus

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #8 on: May 06, 2012, 10:09:19 AM »
While the CZ75B is not designed to have the safety engaged when the hammer is down a good argument can be made that one SHOULD be able to do so. Here is the reason I say this.

In the unlikely or maybe likely event, depending on the situation, that someone unfamiliar with firearms or CZ's should pick up a pistol that has a loaded chamber and pulled the trigger disaster could ensue. If the safety could be engaged with the hammer down it would require one more step which might just be enough to stop that disaster. If, heaven forbid, a child should gain access an applied safety could be the only thing that stops them from pulling the trigger. I would venture to say that most children know much more about pulling triggers than disengaging safeties!

I don't know of any maker, other than CZ that, by design, precludes the application of the safety while the hammer is down.

Spirit 1, the tail of the sear was likely bent by you forcing the safety "on" with the hammer down and would be the part that should be replaced. The cam on the safety is more solid than the sear tail. You also appear to be confusing cocked with the chamber being loaded as in "cocked with the hammer down" . Cocked is only when the hammer is up resting on the sear.

Joe
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Offline CoalTrain73

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Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #9 on: May 06, 2012, 10:56:17 AM »
I don't have a 75, but I have a Canik C100.  That's one thing I like about it, the safety can be engaged in all three hammer positions.   Cocked, half-cocked or lowered all the way.  I carry it on half-cock with the safety engaged.  I feel that it gives me a little added protection against accidental discharge if someone gets ahold of it.
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Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #10 on: May 06, 2012, 11:03:23 AM »
While the CZ75B is not designed to have the safety engaged when the hammer is down a good argument can be made that one SHOULD be able to do so. Here is the reason I say this.

In the unlikely or maybe likely event, depending on the situation, that someone unfamiliar with firearms or CZ's should pick up a pistol that has a loaded chamber and pulled the trigger disaster could ensue. If the safety could be engaged with the hammer down it would require one more step which might just be enough to stop that disaster. If, heaven forbid, a child should gain access an applied safety could be the only thing that stops them from pulling the trigger. I would venture to say that most children know much more about pulling triggers than disengaging safeties!

I don't know of any maker, other than CZ that, by design, precludes the application of the safety while the hammer is down.

Spirit 1, the tail of the sear was likely bent by you forcing the safety "on" with the hammer down and would be the part that should be replaced. The cam on the safety is more solid than the sear tail. You also appear to be confusing cocked with the chamber being loaded as in "cocked with the hammer down" . Cocked is only when the hammer is up resting on the sear.

Joe

Yes, agreed on it being a nice feature to incorporate, safer overall! Of course that all boils down to every human being who handles a gun should assume it's loaded, and that stupid people should not handle guns.

I'll check the sear/trigger & see what I can come up with there, didn't see much on first inspection. That will be difficult without an original sear to compare to. The 'cam' on the safety is what was modified, maybe just a skosh too much. As mentioned above I also have to check out the spring detent/trigger relationship, not sure what's going on there.

Just as an aside, I worked on extremely complex machines as a primary part of my career, some really amazing wowser stuff. For me all that pales in a heartbeat when looking at the mechanical relationships found in firearms actions, enough to reduce me to mindless mumbling, chin dribbling, occasional crying spells and emotional outbursts.

On the 'Cocked & Locked' comment, just a poor choice of words and explanation here, not unusual for me.

Thanks for the assist, guys, I need all the help I can get   :)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2012, 11:21:44 AM by Spirit 1 »

Offline Bret

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #11 on: May 06, 2012, 11:41:29 AM »
75Plus, I agree fully with what you've said and I'll add some more.  While a regular CZ-75 is technically a DA/SA pistol, I believe that for all practical purposes it is really as SA pistol.  I say this because I can't imagine that anyone would consider manually lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber and then carrying the pistol loaded with the safety off to be safer than simply carrying the pistol with the hammer back on a loaded chamber and the safety on.  If one really wants to have a DA first shot with a CZ-75, then the safer option is to get one of the models that comes with a decocker.  If one really wants to have a DA first shot with the safety on, then a Witness (or Canik is you're lucky enough to have one) is your option.  Personally, I've never been comfortable manually lowing a hammer over a loaded chamber, so I carry my Canik and Witness Compact with the safety on and hammer back.

Offline Spirit 1

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #12 on: May 07, 2012, 12:45:28 AM »
75Plus, I agree fully with what you've said and I'll add some more.  While a regular CZ-75 is technically a DA/SA pistol, I believe that for all practical purposes it is really as SA pistol.  I say this because I can't imagine that anyone would consider manually lowering the hammer on a loaded chamber and then carrying the pistol loaded with the safety off to be safer than simply carrying the pistol with the hammer back on a loaded chamber and the safety on.  If one really wants to have a DA first shot with a CZ-75, then the safer option is to get one of the models that comes with a decocker.  If one really wants to have a DA first shot with the safety on, then a Witness (or Canik is you're lucky enough to have one) is your option.  Personally, I've never been comfortable manually lowing a hammer over a loaded chamber, so I carry my Canik and Witness Compact with the safety on and hammer back.

I would guess that overall the 2 methods you describe are about equal as far as chances of an accidental discharge.

With chamber loaded - hammer back - safety on, it's possible that some holster designs might cause release of safety. The chances of also having a force act against trigger enough to overcome S/A trigger pull weight [6.0 - 7.5 lbs] to fire gun are pretty slim. That's assuming the safety is truly safe and effective. Also a holster strap may pass under hammer to mitigate danger while 'cocked & locked'.

With chamber loaded - hammer lowered the chances of a force acting on trigger sufficient to overcome D/A pull weight [9.0-10 lbs] are also remote. Also one may carry in that mode with hammer lowered only to 1/2 cock [some call it 1/4 or 'quarter cock'] with a holster strap to crossover under hammer to prevent discharge should trigger move or hammer fall.

Lowering hammer on a live chamber is a little scary at first. With the Competition Hammer's cutout or the ring cutout on standard hammer it's possible to get a very good grip on hammer while lowering so that it's a relatively safe operation. It's also possible to put offhand index or second finger in front of hammer while lowering to minimize danger.

I notice on mine with loaded chamber - hammer lowered - safety engaged it's not possible to move the hammer from 1/2 cock to full cock, with the safety in its present modified condition. I prefer to carry just like that, but not speaking of carrying in public, just around the ranch. Regardless, this safety requires further investigation of its actual safe condition.

Offline Bret

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #13 on: May 08, 2012, 09:11:42 AM »
I forgot to mention the most important thing that the Wolff employee told me.  He said that dropping a slide on an empty chamber is what damages pistols.  When there is a cartridge in the chamber, the resistance slows down the slide.  When there's not, the slide slams forward at full force.  He said that it's not even a good idea to release the slide on an empty chamber even if the recoil spring is weak.  I have to admit that I've been guilty of doing this.  No more.  If the chamber's empty, I ease it down with my hands.

Offline kobus

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Re: Engaging safety with pistol cocked, hammer down
« Reply #14 on: May 08, 2012, 12:03:50 PM »
I forgot to mention the most important thing that the Wolff employee told me.  He said that dropping a slide on an empty chamber is what damages pistols.  When there is a cartridge in the chamber, the resistance slows down the slide.  When there's not, the slide slams forward at full force.  He said that it's not even a good idea to release the slide on an empty chamber even if the recoil spring is weak.  I have to admit that I've been guilty of doing this.  No more.  If the chamber's empty, I ease it down with my hands.

 ???  i do that with my pistols a few times every time after cleaning and lubricating it to make sure the lube on the rails are spread evenly before wiping down the excess lubricant. i never knew that i could damage a pistol by doing that.  :o
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