Lead Semi wadcutters?

[tt5]

Does anyone have experience loading Missouri Bullet Co's 9mm 125g LSWC for a CZ75? 
What OAL?
How does it feed?

I'm looking for something that makes nice clean holes in the paper but can be loaded a little longer than the 1.07" I currently use with Berry's 124 HBFP in my SP01.

Thanks.

[Wobbly]

Welcome aboard !

I don't load those in 9, but I do load them in 38 and 357. So if you don't mind some insights in place of experience, then here goes....

? You're right, any round nose is simply going to push the paper aside and not give you a clean hole at all. You need something with a stepped periphery to "punch" the paper. Some plain conical nose FP will do the same thing without the step. If you can't get these to work, then you might try the Berry 124gr Hollow Base FP.

? You can seat any Berry RN 115, 124, 130, 135 or 147gr out to 1.169" if you'd like. So the 1.070" is purely your choice, and not a requirement. I like to load the 124gr between 1.130" and 1.140". They do good at that length.

? The sharp shoulder on your MB SWC (being the full .356 diameter) is going to foul the CZ rifling, so you won't want more than ~.040 sticking out of the case. But on the other hand, you won't want the step flush with the case either. You want the lead shoulder to take the hit as it slides up the ramp and into the chamber, and not the sharp edge of the case mouth which could get caught on something.



? On a revolver,  you have to load to the crimp cannelure, but auto bullets don't have those. But since your bullets do have a lube ring you'll have to bury that grease inside the case. Then you are somewhat free to play with the OAL (plus or minus ~.015") as long as you stay out of the rifling. If it looks like this you'll be good to start experimenting....



? The lead bullets are larger diameter, so you'll need slightly more belling. You should be able to seat the bullet without shaving any lead off. If you start to see lead "whiskers" piling up under the seating die, then that's not enough belling.

? If you are using dies that give you a choice of seating anvils (like Dillon, or Hornady) then you want to use the flat anvil. If you are using Lee, then you may want to order the optional extra seating anvil for $9.


There is a "push test" we use to determine exact maximum OAL, but that's a lot of trouble with lead bullets, besides you'll be restricted by the lube ring as we already discussed. Also I highly suggest starting out with a moderate speed powder like HP-38/ Win231 or N320, then work up to hotter powders if necessary.

Get ready for a pile of smoke! 

[tekarra]

I have no feed problems with the Missouri LSWC in my 75Bs, but I prefer the Misoouri 125 grain Cone.  They also give a good clean hole in paper.  I set my dies with a factor bought bullet, forgot what the LOA is.

[tt5]

Thanks Wobbly,
I've been around here a while. I just don't post much.

I'm currently using the Berry hollow base flat point you mentioned. The 1.07 is based on a push test result of 1.08.  I started at 1.065 with the HBFP, but moved that out to 1.07 when I had feeding issues (flat tip catching the barrel hood).  The feeding problem is less common with 1.07, but hasn't gone away. 

I know I can solve the problem by going to a round nose with longer OAL, but I like the holes from the flat point bullet.  Maybe Missouri's 147 flat point with a rounded ogive would do the job.

I'm placing an order in the next few days for .358 semi-wadcutters and wadcutters to feed my revolver.  I figured I'd ask here about the .356 9mm's before gambling on a box of bullets that might not meet my needs.



Tekarra, if you have any of the Missouri LSWC's around, could you measure from the tip to the shoulder of one of the SWC bullets?  That'd probably give me enough info to answer the question.

[noylj]

Gee, I load 'em long and have NO leading. If I could, I would load them to touch the lede/rifling to minimize headspace. Excess headspace is one reason for atrocious 9x19 accuracy. If you want to get some idea of how accurate your 9x19 might be, resize your cases and sort all that are 0.751-0.754", if you can find any.
First, COL:
COL is determined by 1) the bullet ogive and meplat, 2) the magazine and where in the cycle the round is released, 3) the feed ramp geometry, and 4) the chamber opening in the barrel (catching the barrel hood or other bouncing around problems) and the chamber itself.
So, all but 1) are determined by your individual gun. You need to find the range of COL that feeds reliably. All you can get from someone else is an indication.
I load at 1.142-1.156", though many stay around 1.050" (I have no idea why). My L-RN are loaded at 1.125-1.150". My RNFP are loaded around 1.08-1.15". JHPs, particularly Gold Dots, are loaded around 1.14-1.15". This is all due to differences in bullet ogives and bearing length. There is no magic COL and similar appearing L-RN bullets can have very different COL requirements.
The 124-125gn L-SWC bullets and the 115gn L-SWCs feed reliably in ALL my 9x19s, even pre-WWII P-08s (Lugers).
The concern with lead bullets is to first slug your barrel so you know what your barrel's groove diameter is. If your gun is newer than 1995, then you have a good chance of having a barrel with a groove diameter of right around 0.355". However, 9x19 barrels have historically ranged from 0.3545" to 0.362". The lead bullet almost always has to be AT LEAST 0.001" larger than the groove diameter. Thus, I generally shoot my own cast bullets as-cast (0.357-0.358") and tumble lubed. Most of my 9x19s are happy with commercial 0.356-0.357" cast bullets--but some can't shoot them due to large groove diameters.
I have never needed a hard cast bullet in 9x19, but then I have also never found any thing wrong with a properly sized or over-sized hard cast bullet either.

[tt5]

My batch of the Missouri Bullet Company 9mm SWC bullets arrived, and I went to work.

Here's a picture of the MBC 9mm SWC in the middle.The other two bullets are MBC's 158g semiwadcutter for 38/357 and a Berry 9mm 124g HBFP. My experience to date has been mostly Berry bullets, so I'll use my Berry loads as reference.

The length from the nose of the bullet to the middle of the forward driving band is 0.34" and the band is 0.1" wide.  So if you seated the bullet with the mouth of the case 1/2 way up the driving band. the OAL would be about 1.09".




Step 2 was determining at what OAL the shoulder of the bullet would start to hit the rifling.  These bullets are very snug in the case which made a standard push test difficult. I pressed a bunch of bullets into cases at lengths from 1.07 to 1.10, dropped them into the barrel and measured the total length from muzzle to case head.
At 1.086 and under, the combined length was the same as with an empty case.
At 1.087 and over, the combined length grew.

Subtract 0.015, and I started loading to an OAL of 1.072", which buries slightly more than half of the forward driving band in the case.  I'm gaining 0.005" increased length. The diameter of the flat tip of the bullet is smaller. With luck, it will avoid getting caught on the barrel hood.

I have more seated depth than I am used to, so I started the loads very low. I have a box of cartridges with with a bunch of different powder weights waiting for a trip to the range some time this week.



While I was doing this series of experiments, I also adjusted my Lee seating die lower so that it seats and crimps. The FCD is back in the box.
 

[Wobbly]

That last photo looks good to my eyes. Should function well in your pistol. Good luck with the incremental loads.

[tt5]

I managed to get to the range this afternoon and fired off my test cartridges. Everything was done from a rest on the bench. 

I should mention that the Lyman shows 2.9 to 4.4gW231 for a 125g conical lead.  I stayed well below max.

1- fired 2 5 shot groups of plated.
2- fired 5 shot groups starting at 2.9g w231 up to where groups got huge.
3- fired a second series of 5 shot groups starting at  2.9 again,
4- fired 2 5 shot groups of plated.

Observations
- At 2.9 and 3.0 grains, I had 1 or two stovepipes during each string.
- at 3.7 grains and higher I was getting keyholing (tumbling, not just tearing of unsupported paper) and the group size started to grow rapidly.
- the final 2 groups of plated were right back down where I'd expect them to be.

I'll find a hole in the Lee disk that dumps somewhere in the 3.3-3.5 grain range. I may have to make another testing trip to the range.  Gotta use this mild weather while it lasts.

[Wobbly]

Thanks Tim, that's good to know. And what was the OAL you settled on again ?

As far as the Lee bushings, they sell more sizes than they give away with the powder measure. If you can't get happy with the sizes you have, then give them a call.

[1SOW]

I'll find a hole in the Lee disk that dumps somewhere in the 3.3-3.5 grain range.

JFI: The LEE discs are $5 each.  If the disc won't oblige you, they can be modified pretty easily and renumbered to a number between two existing holes.  It'll still work as advertised with any powder using the chart.  The now-modified hole number will 'exactly" agree with chart load.

[tt5]

The OK range from yesterdays tests was wide enough that I expect at least one standard holes will fall in there. I need to test a little more and see if I need to go between holes.

I have the adjustable charge bar dialed in for my current load behind the Berry HBFP. That's about half way between 2 holes on the disk. But I think the 3.2-3.5g of W231 that this bullet wants is on the low end of what I can repeatably meter with the adjustable bar.

I should order a few spare "A disks" from Lee so that I won't be afraid to modify the one disk I have.  I'll add it to the never ending shopping list.

Wobbly, I made these to 1.072" OAL. That is limited by the rifling in my barrel. 

[Wobbly]

Wobbly, I made these to 1.072" OAL. That is limited by the rifling in my barrel.

Thanks, I see it now. Last night I couldn't scroll back for some reason. Duh !!

[Duckie]

After your range trip, how was the fouling/leading in your barrel? The MB SWC is one of the bullets I have on my wish list to try once I am ready to start reloading.

[Wobbly]

After your range trip, how was the fouling/leading in your barrel? The MB SWC is one of the bullets I have on my wish list to try once I am ready to start reloading.

Donald -
Lead is really not where you want to start. The week you start reloading, you'll have 1000 other things to think about emergency concerns. Just call Berry Mfg and ask for their "9mm assortment pack". You'll get about 9 each of their 11 different types of plated bullets. Your experiments with these are going to go so much smoother. You'll see a big variety and learn a lot.

Then, when your dies are all adjusted, your loading process is jelling nicely, your time and trust level with your powder measure has increased.... then you can start in on lead bullets.

Trust me on this. 

[Wobbly]

I have the adjustable charge bar dialed in for my current load behind the Berry HBFP. That's about half way between 2 holes on the disk. But I think the 3.2-3.5g of W231 that this bullet wants is on the low end of what I can repeatably meter with the adjustable bar.

Reading between the lines, I take it that you used the drops from successive Lee powder bushings to do your "incremental loading". Pardon my French, but this is somewhat "back-asswards". You'd be much better served to use your scale (only) to measure out exact loads. Yes it takes a little longer, but you're worth it. That way you can construct the loads exactly 0.2gr apart... and know precisely what you have. Powder measures are inherently inaccurate for this task.

Then, after testing you'll KNOW exactly what you want. THEN you can go back and tweak your powder measure to deliver the loads you desire.

It's a subtle difference, but one that will pay big dividends.