Author Topic: Project "C-100" how to smooth a Tristar/Canik Long thread lots of pictures!  (Read 38623 times)

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Offline terry mc

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Yeah,
That is exactly what I thought Paul.
But as you said it will give a good point to start, so we shall see once I have them installed.
Terry Mc
G.B. CZ-97BE-SA
CZ Scorpion CZ Custom Trigger Pack, Streamlight TLR-1HL Primary Arms MD-ADS
75B polished stainless  (wifes, pure stock for now)
RAMI safety model (CGW springs, Shadow hammer & sear, polished act., tritium sites)
TRISTAR C-100 (CGW & polished act. tritium sites)

Offline terry mc

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PART 4 POLISHING THE ACTION AND INSTALLING THE 85C TRIGGER


In part 3 I finished the install of the new sear.
Last friday I got to go out and shoot for a while and I will say the work on the gun has drastically improved the feel of the trigger.
I no longer feel like you have to focus as hard to keep from pulling your shots.
The feel is approaching the feel of my other guns.

Each stage in this modification has been a diminishing return process, meaning that we get less with each step compared to the last.
That is also true of this step, however I feel that the polishing gives a refined feel to the trigger. In the Canik, the trigger and sear parts appear rougher compared to a CZ. The CGW parts remove the roughness from the hammer and sear, but you still have a lot of surfaces that rub even more during the pullng of the trigger. Polishihng these tend to remove that grittiness comment we all see.

At this point I want to point out that all the work being done on this segment is a what I have learned on this excellent thread started by none other than Schmeky and with input from other talented gusnsmiths.
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=42537.0


As before you need to disassemble the gun starting with the safety check, them remove everything done to the frame.
Now you should have  frame with the trigger, trigger bar, and magazine catch, along with the associated springs.

Simply tap out the trigger pin, side to side does not make a difference which direction.


Once you have removed the pin you can push the trigger up out of the frame and pull the trigger and trigger bar froward toward the front of the frame to lift it out.


I will be doing less pictures on this one as Schmeky has done an excellent job with the thread mentioned above.

I tend to start with the large surfaces and work my way down to the small areas detailed by Schmeky.

For the large areas I tend to use a block to wrap sand paper around and work the surface of the trigger bar against it.
ON the Canik I started with 1000 grit and finished sanding with 2000 grit and then finally polishing the assembly with a dremel and white rouge.
I polish the large flats on each side of the trigger bar as this is one of the largest contact areas.

sorry this shot came out slightly blurry.

I do the top of the trigger bar just as Schmeky has described.
The area that is clearly visible in this shot are all areas that rub against the frame or the slide. Just as I did with the flats I polish this to a mirror smooth shine.


Another area that I address is the surface that the trigger bar lifting spring rubs, it is 2 slots on the bottom side, and this was brought up in this thread here
http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=14685.0




And just for giggles I polished the ends of the spring, again this is a diminishing return thing but while I have it all apart it is easier than wondering later if I should have done it.


Polishing the disconnect engagement surfaces helps the feel of the break, so that is done as well, with everything being done as described in the thread by Schmeky.


So once everthing is polished I reassemble and in this case I add the 85C trigger inplace of the stock trigger.
My reason for using the 85C trigger is strictly for the overtravel screw. I have it on my SA and on the RAMI so I like to keep some uniformity amongst my various guns. The newer style 85C trigger also has more scallop than the old one, which I will go into taste latter, but it allows for a slightly less reach to the trigger if you have small hands.
With floating trigger pin, CGW provides you with a slave pin this allows you to install the trigger return spring with the trigger bar and trigger as one assembly instead of installing the spring inside the frame. Also install the set screw inside the trigger before installing the assembly it is lot easier than doing it around the trigger guard.


Now we can reassemble the gun, install the trigger/trigger bar assembly in the opposite fashion you did in removal and install the trigger pin.
I have opted for a CGW floating trigger pin on this gun, and I like it. unlike the CZ trigger pin, this one is turned down in the middle allowing the trigger spring to capture the pin instead of needing to be a stacked pin like the stock one.

Now that I have reassembled the gun it is time to check my results.
I am going to start with the objective results.

DA trigger pull for the polished trigger assembly.  10 pull average 7lbs. 2 oz. Wow! that is down a full pound from Part three, and 11lbs. from stock! (going by Farmerbobs results)


SA trigger pull for the polished trigger assembly. 10 pull average 3lbs. 6.3 oz. this is a 3.4 oz. drop from Part 3, and 1 lb. 12.6 oz. from stock.


For the single action shooters here the numbers are not a huge change but I can tell you that subjectively it is a big improvement.
This trigger for this gun is nearly the same as my CZ RAMI, it is the reference that I use for double action triggers as it is the best that I have every felt for double action. Single Action my SA is from another planet but that is another story altogether.
One thing that I notice between the C-110 and the RAMI is pretravel and trigger stacking.
This is where my RAMI has always excelled, the pretravel is very light and you cannot feel the stacking unless you are very very slow looking for the stacking point.

Let me take a moment, to explain the stacking feel for Single Action on any CZ with a firing pin block. 
When you take up the pretravel to the point of sear engagement, there is a point where you start lifting the firing pin block just before the sear breaks and the hammer falls that creates a slight change in the weight of the trigger pull therefore you feel a slight difference as you move through the travel.
With a stock Canik the only point that the firing pin block is lifted is when the sear has begun to be moved, so it is not felt on pretravel but as part of the longer sear break.

Also I wanted to quantify the weights of each gun for pretravel (sinle action) including the stacking of the firing pin block.
The RAMI measured 1lb. 8.2 oz.

The C-100 measured 2lbs. 1.4 oz.


The lighter pretravel on the RAMI is most likely a lighter trigger return spring combined with a polished firing pin block on that gun.


At a later date, I may try doing the polish of the Firing pin Block which I did not do on this gun to see if it lessens the perceived stacking.
Keep in mind that this is looking for differences and that most will only feel the lighter pretravel attained from polishing of the action.

Double action stacking is created by another event that happens, which is the half cocked position of the hammer, with a heavy hammer spring you do not notice this as you are so busy fighting the spring. With a light spring and a polished action, you have removed many of the things that you struggled with before so as you move through the double action stroke you can feel a slight click in the trigger as the hammer reaches the shelf for half cocked.
With My RAMI in particular it has a Shadow hammer, which has a smaller shelf for the half cocked than the race hammers, the result is that the click is almost imperceptible as you move through the stroke giving it the smoothest double action I have used.
The race hammers having a slightly larger shelf, allowing a slight click as the trigger moves through the travel.
The effort does not build and this is a tiny difference between the guns that can only be noticed in back to back observation.

Now I will say the only negative thing in my build so far, that I have experienced is the newer style 85C triggers, I have seen several people comment on the differences between the new style and the old style trigger. The old style has a thicker trigger and less curve at the bottom of the trigger, the newer style is very reminiscent of the recurve trigger that most new CZ's ship with. For my wife it is not bothersome as she has small fingers and they fit in the small curve of the trigger, for me I have XXXl hands and the small curve tends to bite into my finger at the end the end of the trigger.
The flip side is people with smaller hands now have less reach due to the cut in the trigger.

Here is a shot using my left hand to show the trigger.


Here is a shot of the older style 85C trigger for comparison.Notice that it has less hook to it.


I will get to  the range in the next couple days and give you my thoughts.
Part 5 coming soon sight fitment using the Trijicon combat style sights from CZC.

Terry Mc
G.B. CZ-97BE-SA
CZ Scorpion CZ Custom Trigger Pack, Streamlight TLR-1HL Primary Arms MD-ADS
75B polished stainless  (wifes, pure stock for now)
RAMI safety model (CGW springs, Shadow hammer & sear, polished act., tritium sites)
TRISTAR C-100 (CGW & polished act. tritium sites)

Offline Bishop112

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looking great as usual terry!
75B 9mm-w/CZ Custom hammer and CGW everything else
75B SA .40 S&W-work done by CZCustom
Kadet Kit
75 Compact-w/CZ Custom hammer and CGW everything else... so far...
Browning Hi-Power Practical

Offline DexterGSP

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More great pics and tutorial!

Terry, I ordered a couple of different nylon punches from Brownell's today.  They will arrive by Friday.  As for a punches, I will now have brass and nylon to deal with these sights.  I also have the ability to heat parts due to my oven being in my garage for refinishing plus a decent vice with wood pads.  I also have files and stones too (if fitting is needed for the sights).  Anyway, like I said before, you are more than welcome to come over and do it at my house if you can find the time.

Paul
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Offline Bishop112

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When I take out the sights I used a turned down brass rod for a drift... then I took a small piece of my leather cuff off one of my old pairs of my Tig welding gloves and put that on the sight and smacked it out. It left absolutally no marks on the slide or sight and its not near as slippery as a nylon, uhmw, or sometype of plastic punch. I also use the rest of the cuff to hold my slide in the vice and it held firm and no markings on the slide. If someone wants I can take pics of that.
75B 9mm-w/CZ Custom hammer and CGW everything else
75B SA .40 S&W-work done by CZCustom
Kadet Kit
75 Compact-w/CZ Custom hammer and CGW everything else... so far...
Browning Hi-Power Practical

Offline Genin

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Excellent pictures and updates Terry. I look forward to seeing the sight fitment and installation. I feel like is something I'd want to do down the road with my Stingray-C. I know it's not as easy with the stingray because the rear dovetail is a peculiar size, but I'm sure it could be done with the right rear sight. I prefer tritium sights.

Offline terry mc

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PART 5 SIGHTS

Well guys and gals it is time to get rid of one of my least favorite part of the C-100, the factory sights.
As previously discussed the factory sights shoot low and mine shot to the right (drift adjustment no big deal).

Before we get into that I want to comment on my last installment, the trigger work.
I went to the range yesterday and shot a hundred rounds, this gun is great!
I am very happy with the progress, I thought I would not like the NEW STYLE CZ85C trigger compared to the old one on my RAMI.
I was wrong, in a hundred rounds I never thought about the curve of the new style versus the old style, never once crossed my mind.
I only thought of it after I left and went "wait a minute this it that recurve style trigger", it obviously is less of a curve than the stock trigger from my RAMI I hated that one the moment I shot it.
No Malfunctions, just great shooting albeit low and to the right as has been the history of this gun.


Personally I am not a fan of low profile sights, I find the front sight hard to pickup in  a  hurry and the small notch makes it so you really have to focus to get good centering. But I think that this is a taste thing as others like them.

So I went for the best sights for my tastes, I do like a tritium sight for my carry gun, for a range gun not really a benefit, CZ Custom stocks these sights,
REAR
http://czcustom.com/czshadowtacticalreartritium.aspx

FRONT
http://czcustom.com/cztritiumfrontsight60mm.aspx

Really not cheap but exactly what I am looking for.

First thing is getting the old sights off of the gun, I started with the front sight as I knew it had a complication.
The front Bushing for the C-100 overlaps the front sight, so it needs a slight trim to the bushing to get the sight out.


I used a file to trim the bushing down slowly to make clearance for the front sight to be removed.
I will note here that is you have the Hard Chrome version prior to 2014 that even the front bushing is chromed.
I thought it would be Cerakote for the bushing but as soon as I started filing on it, it became obvious that it was chromed.

Next step was to remove the sight retaining pin. This was a simple task with a 3mm drift punch.


Then to tap out the front sight.
I had read where others had a difficult time with the front sight and had marked up their slides.
I did not want to save the old slide so I thought maybe if I use a small (3mm) punch, I could hook it in the white dot for the sight.
I worked, it hooked in there perfectly allowing me to drive out the sight without getting close to the slide.


So now to fit the new tritium sight.
I had heard on other Caniks that there is a fitment to the CZ sights for the front sight requiring a slight trim.
This had held true for me on the front sight, to the extent of just polishing the sides of the new sight, removing the parkerizing off of it allowed it to be tapped into place.
Once it is in place the Tritium front sight requires another task before pinning it into place.
The bottom on the new sight is flat and therefore needs drilling for the pin to retain it in place.
I bought the sight drill bit from CZ Custom when I bought the sight.
Do not be afraid to ask these guys if there is anything that you need that you have not asked for, because sometimes it brings up things like this drill bit.
I slid the drill bit in by hand at first checking for how tight into the slide it fit, it was not too tight so I was confident I would not be removing slide material when doing this.
So I chuck up the drill bit insert into the slide stopping at the sight, here is the part where a sense of feel comes into play.
I back the bit off of the sight still in the slide run up the speed on the drill and slowly push into the sight.
This allows me to slowly cut away at the sight material without taking too big a bite and breaking the bit, it also keeps the twisting of the bit down so you are not cutting the slide. LIGHT PRESSURE IS GOOD, high turning speed and it drilled through with almost no effort.
I was almost surprised how easy it went through, it is clearly a very mild steel.


The new front sight pinned in place I turn my attention to the dreadful rear sight.
I have been keeping up on DexterGSP's thread on doing the rear sight.
It is right here, http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=64002.0 and for those who are not into spending big dollars on a low cost gun, he is working on a great solution for the low shooting sights. I think it is a must read for C-100 owners.
One of the  things I have been reading is the difficulty in removing the stock rear sight and how tight it is.
Dexter had made a suggestion at one point to me for removing the stock rear sight and that is to CUT IT.
Sound drastic, but it really works well if you have the Cajones to go near your slide with a saw.
Here is how I did it.
First I chucked the slide up into a bench vice using two blocks of wood to form my softjaw.
Then to protect the slide slightly I decided to try some duct tape of all things.
Let me explain, duct tape has some elastic properties to it and the saw that I am using is a Multitool aka. Vibrasaw.
They vibrate the blade back and forth a very short distance at high speeds, you can place it on you skin and because it has more give than the blade travels it normally will not but you.
So here is the slide masked and chucked up.


I then cut down from the top of the sight side to side, slowly working my way down until I have cut maybe 3/4 the way through.


Once I reached that point I took a punch of sufficient size and tapped forward on the backside of the sight, partially collapsing it in the dovetail.
This not only makes the sight slightly smaller but loosens it in the slide.
Now I take the same punch and I am able to GENTLY tap it out, it took less effort to tap it out than some of the rolled pins at this point.



It may be scary at first, but this is the easiest I have ever removed from a slide.
So now we look at the dovetail for the slide and the new sight and I can see the dovetail will fit the sight, but the overhang on the sight needs a slight trim to clear the back of the slide.


After a couple minutes with a file I beveled the inside edge of the sight enough to clear the slide I then took a dremel and cleaned (polished) the file marks on the inside and installed the new sight on the gun. The new sight drifted in without too much effort. I used a combination of leather and some duct tape on a punch to create a padded punch to push the new sight in. It was a nice tight fit that had to be drift punched into place so I am confident that this sight will stay put.
Additionally it has a set screw to lock it down.

The new sight picture is awesome, nice clean view of the front blade and no searching in an undersized sight window.
Additionally with the conbat style sight you have an increase over the stock sight radius of .5855 inches!
half an inch may not sound like much until you realize that the difference between a compact and a full size CZ is about .8".



Final pictures soon, I don't want to spoil the final reveal!
I will also be following up with a couple of parts that some vendors have shipped me to try out.
Great stuff!
Terry Mc
G.B. CZ-97BE-SA
CZ Scorpion CZ Custom Trigger Pack, Streamlight TLR-1HL Primary Arms MD-ADS
75B polished stainless  (wifes, pure stock for now)
RAMI safety model (CGW springs, Shadow hammer & sear, polished act., tritium sites)
TRISTAR C-100 (CGW & polished act. tritium sites)

Offline DexterGSP

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Terry, the sights looks great.  Super detailed pictures and tutorial.  Awesome sticky!!!

Please let us know what the POI is compared to the POA.  Hopefully the sights are close.

Paul

AZCDL and GOA Member

Offline Genin

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Terry those sights look great! Are the dovetail sizes the same on the c-100 and the stingray-c? I'm wondering if those sights would work on my stingray-c!!

Offline DexterGSP

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Terry those sights look great! Are the dovetail sizes the same on the c-100 and the stingray-c? I'm wondering if those sights would work on my stingray-c!!

No!  The dovetails are not the same width.
AZCDL and GOA Member

Offline Genin

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Dang!

Offline terry mc

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Genin,
Dexter is correct unfortunately they are very different on the width of the dovetail.
I still do not understand why they use different widths for the dovetails on these guns from Canik.
It is not like we are looking at different generations of guns i.e. CZ75B versus SP01.
These all should be about the same generational age, unless I am missing something.
It is one of the few things I find disappointing with Canik.
Terry Mc
G.B. CZ-97BE-SA
CZ Scorpion CZ Custom Trigger Pack, Streamlight TLR-1HL Primary Arms MD-ADS
75B polished stainless  (wifes, pure stock for now)
RAMI safety model (CGW springs, Shadow hammer & sear, polished act., tritium sites)
TRISTAR C-100 (CGW & polished act. tritium sites)

Offline terry mc

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I stopped by the range on the way back from a jobsight this morning, long day already it started at 3AM for one jobsight.

Anyways, the really really great news is these sights are PERFECT!

here is a group from 5 yards The flyer is obviously operator error.  Really cheap 115 gr. Federal Champion ammo from Walmart.


I was about done with my last magazine and shot this 3 shot group at 10 yards.  REally cheap 115 gr. Federal Champion ammo from Walmart.


Work on my skills and this inexpensive compact clone will be a tack driver!!

Oh yeah sneak peak, I will be doing a real photoshoot later but......
Oh yeah notice the nice Baseplate I got yesterday in the mail from none other than our own 75plus, you HC owners need to buy some from him.




Terry Mc
G.B. CZ-97BE-SA
CZ Scorpion CZ Custom Trigger Pack, Streamlight TLR-1HL Primary Arms MD-ADS
75B polished stainless  (wifes, pure stock for now)
RAMI safety model (CGW springs, Shadow hammer & sear, polished act., tritium sites)
TRISTAR C-100 (CGW & polished act. tritium sites)

Offline Genin

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Man that pistol is looking great. Good shooting too!

Offline Bishop112

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Looking great !
75B 9mm-w/CZ Custom hammer and CGW everything else
75B SA .40 S&W-work done by CZCustom
Kadet Kit
75 Compact-w/CZ Custom hammer and CGW everything else... so far...
Browning Hi-Power Practical