Author Topic: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA  (Read 6883 times)

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Offline danno_man

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Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« on: September 09, 2014, 05:38:04 AM »
Good thing I shoot USPSA.

Quack

Offline Joe L

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2014, 07:31:52 AM »
You can still shoot it in ESP.  Local SSP is too crowded anyway for me.  I even shoot my SSP legal gun in ESP.   

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline danno_man

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2014, 08:03:04 AM »
Nope, because it has a full dust cover, it was legal for ESP because it was legal in SSP

8.2.2.1.7.  All firearms legal in SSP are legal for use in ESP.  This provision may be used for firearms that violate an ESP rule (for example, a firearm with a steel dust cover or rail over 3.25”) to still be used in ESP, provided the firearm meets all SSP requirements.
Quack

Offline Rex Kramer

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2014, 10:20:04 AM »

So would the Acculite (the CZ75 based accushadow) be legal for ESP since it doesn't have a full length dust cover?

Offline Joe L

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2014, 11:06:59 AM »
Nope, because it has a full dust cover, it was legal for ESP because it was legal in SSP

8.2.2.1.7.  All firearms legal in SSP are legal for use in ESP.  This provision may be used for firearms that violate an ESP rule (for example, a firearm with a steel dust cover or rail over 3.25”) to still be used in ESP, provided the firearm meets all SSP requirements.

Ooops.  My mistake.  I love my 75B.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Alpha Sierra

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2014, 11:49:22 AM »
This decision is completely retarded and has no basis on the rule section that IDPA HQ is quoting.

Their new rule book has been an unmitigated disaster and I forsee more and more seasoned competitors leaving for USPSA completely.

Offline motosapiens

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2014, 01:19:48 PM »
You can still shoot it in ESP.  Local SSP is too crowded anyway for me.  I even shoot my SSP legal gun in ESP.   

By 'too crowded', do you mean 'too many good shooters for me to place highly?'   or what?  I would think if you wanted to improve you'd want to measure yourself against everyone, which is why I pretty much ignored the divisions and classes and just looked at the overall when I shot IDPA. Then I realized the whole point of IDPA was to discourage technological and athletic improvement and went on to other sports.

Offline GForceLizard

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 01:47:18 PM »
All CZ Custom has to do is convince CZ-USA to add it to their web site with the other competition models.  Sell some through the dealer network.  Have CZ-USA confirm that 2000 have been produced.  True or not they will not ask CZ for proof of the production numbers.  It's not what the Accu-Shadow is.  It's who sells the Accu-Shadow.

Offline Joe L

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 02:17:21 PM »
You can still shoot it in ESP.  Local SSP is too crowded anyway for me.  I even shoot my SSP legal gun in ESP.   

By 'too crowded', do you mean 'too many good shooters for me to place highly?' 

Pretty much this... :) :)

All the cool kids shoot SSP.  I'm not cool.  Even worse, I don't follow rules well.  IDPA is not a significant part of my shooting activities this year.  Bullseye IS cool.  Different sport, suits me much better.  But, I like them all.   

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline brisix

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 02:25:42 PM »
All CZ Custom has to do is convince CZ-USA to add it to their web site with the other competition models.  Sell some through the dealer network.  Have CZ-USA confirm that 2000 have been produced.  True or not they will not ask CZ for proof of the production numbers.  It's not what the Accu-Shadow is.  It's who sells the Accu-Shadow.

I have an email from Robert Ray from June 21st 2013:

Brian,

After looking at the gun a little closer, I do not see any reason why it would not be legal for SSP except for its weight. It would need to be 39 ounces by the current rule book to be legal for SSP. As it has a full length dust cover, it is not legal for ESP unless it were legal for SSP because of the SSP exception for full length dust cover.

Robert Ray
International Defensive Pistol Association
2232 County Road 719
Berryville, AR 72616
robert@idpa.com
(w)870-545-3886
(f)870-545-3894
(cell)870-350-1885

Before he sent this email I talked with him on the phone and he said he was going to talk with CZ-USA before he would make a decision.   I am just glad I did not buy an Accu-Shadow after getting this email from Robert.  I went with a standard Shadow instead.

Alpha Sierra

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2014, 07:29:09 AM »
All CZ Custom has to do is convince CZ-USA to add it to their web site with the other competition models.  Sell some through the dealer network.  Have CZ-USA confirm that 2000 have been produced.  True or not they will not ask CZ for proof of the production numbers.  It's not what the Accu-Shadow is.  It's who sells the Accu-Shadow.

All that has been done, see my analysis and conclusion below:
From the IDPA rulebook, this is the only definition of what an OEM (original equipment manufacturer) pistol is:
"...With respect to slide machining, SSP, ESP and CDP, Original Equipment Manufacturer (OEM) firearms with extensive slide machining are approved for use in IDPA if they meet all other
 requirements for their respective Divisions. For slide machining, an OEM product is defined as a complete firearm product, with specific model part numbers or skus catalogued as stock items by the manufacturer and have a minimum annual production of 2,000 units for that specific model."

Let's review if the Accushadow meets the definition of an OEM product......
1) A complete firearm product - Why yes, when you buy the Accushadow you get a pistol, not a box of parts or add-ons

2) With specific model part numbers or skus catalogued as stock items by the manufactuer - Why yes, SKU 91730 right from CZ-USA's website: http://cz-usa.com/product/cz-75-sp-01-accu-shadow-9mm-black-3x18-rd-mags-by-cz-custom/

3) Have a minimum production run of 2000 units for that specific model: Why yes, if the Accushadow did not meet the 2000 pc minimum it would not be approved by USPSA as a Production gun

So the AccuShadow meets the OEM product definition, but IDPA rules it illegal on some other arbitrary definition, while they let slide all the S&W Performance Center and PRO Series pistols.

It wouldn't have anything to do with all the money S&W pours into IDPA? 
« Last Edit: September 10, 2014, 08:17:47 AM by Alpha Sierra »

Offline danno_man

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2014, 07:44:06 AM »
Guess the CZ-USA sponsor money isn't enough, as they are a sponsor of nationals.

http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2014/09/09/Federal-Premium-Sponsors-2014-IDPA-US-National-Championship.aspx
Quack

Alpha Sierra

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2014, 08:18:05 AM »
Guess the CZ-USA sponsor money isn't enough, as they are a sponsor of nationals.

http://www.idpa.com/blog/post/2014/09/09/Federal-Premium-Sponsors-2014-IDPA-US-National-Championship.aspx
What a slap in the face, then

Offline cclaxton

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2014, 10:31:24 AM »
Link to a very long thread about this subject.
This has nothing to do with other gun manufacturers. This has everything to do with the IDPA making a ruling based on the current rules. The fight may not be over yet...there are quite a few people upset about it.

In my opinion the Accushadow should be legal in ESP, but not in SSP (because of the slide modifications and the bushing is exposed externally.) There are many guns that are legal in ESP but not in SSP. I don't think IDPA even realized that the rule on full length steel dust covers would be triggered, thus making it illegal in ESP since the rule is that the FL dust cover is legal in ESP only if it's legal in SSP.

With all this fuss, it wouldn't surprise me if they come out stating the Accushadow is legal in ESP. It may even happen at the Nationals.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/2211818877/10152438907858878/?notif_t=group_comment_reply
Cody

Alpha Sierra

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Re: Accu Shadow is officially illegal for IDPA
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2014, 10:40:08 AM »
Link to a very long thread about this subject.
In my opinion the Accushadow should be legal in ESP, but not in SSP (because of the slide modifications and the bushing is exposed externally.)
Those are not modifications, those are standard characteristics of that model.  The Accu-Shadow is, by the IDPA definition of an OEM product, an OEM product.

The IDPA rulebook is rife with contradictions, this being the latest and arguably the most egregious.

 

anything