Author Topic: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison  (Read 16238 times)

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Offline gwvt

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #15 on: December 15, 2014, 05:46:38 PM »
I wouldn't think it would be worth it. Even just CNC Warrior's selection of 14x1 RH muzzle devices is pretty extensive.
http://www.cncwarrior.com/SearchResults.asp?Cat=1885

I'll quote RSR's comments from above for review, especially the link to the larger muzzle device thread
See this thread: http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=62114.0

The Phantom type flash hiders are 3rd best on the market after the Smith Vortex and AAC Blackout respectively.  Neither YHM Phantoms nor Smith Enterprise nor AAC makes a 14x1 RH option.  CNC Warrior and the Czech's both make a version of the Phantom.  If you want to run the two best, you can run CNC Warrior's 14x1 RH to 14x1 LH adapter.  Or re-thread your barrel.

For dual use flash hider brakes, the special forces and zendl are the only effective options that I'm aware of (no, I don't think CNC Warrior's night brake has any flash reduction capabilities)...  In 14x1 LH/AK, the Primary Weapons Systems FSC47 is a good option.

Brakes, it's really a question as to what you're trying to accomplish as to which is best for your purposes...

The Czech Double Baffle Brake is a very cost effective all-around performance option.  The Slovak brakes and Bulldog are more geared to reduce muzzle rise during full auto/rapid than the Baffle.  Reindexing your slant is a significant improvement.  But using the Czech 22mm one over the Century one does have the benefit of a more of a nudge than the push you get from the AK47 slant (it has both a narrower profile and lip that serve to primarily just push the barrel down).
« Last Edit: December 15, 2014, 05:48:30 PM by gwvt »

Offline muggia59

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #16 on: December 15, 2014, 07:16:20 PM »
I can second that the night brake from CNC doesn't reduce flash, but it does do well on felt recoil. My brother got the Ultimate Arms Gear 6 prong defense break, and it works better than my night brake. Still a pretty good flash, and don't stand beside us when we are firing.
CZ SP01 Tactical, CZ SP01 Phantom, CZ P07, CZP01, CZCadet kit, CZ Scorpion EVO S1.

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #17 on: December 15, 2014, 09:52:47 PM »
Is it more cost effective to have the barrel rethreaded and get an AK muzzle device?  I haven't yet looked into the cost of the choices for the VZ2008.  I assume there are a bunch more choices for the AK than the VZ.

Any chance for some sort of table, or at least a synopsis, of the various muzzle devices available for the VZ2008?

There are quite a few muzzle options for the VZ58, more than enough to give you a complete selection for your specific field of use needs , and if your hung on AKM brakes then you can put an adapter 14x1RH that accepts the larger size AK brakes.

I saw a pic once (maybe from RSR) that lined up a bunch of different brakes.  I have a bunch myself, so maybe I can snap a pic and post.  But remember you can adapt AKM brakes to the VZ -- but my limited tests of a Bulgarian (Arsenal) AKM brake was not very good on the VZ. In fact it performed worse than the slant brake in regards to rise.
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline jb2sea

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2014, 08:08:33 AM »
There certainly is a good selection of muzzle devices for the VZ.  To the point it takes a good while to read through everything to try and figure out which of the few a buyer should be looking at.  Which is why I think a short and sweet summary list of what are generally considered to be the best ones would be a huge help to new owners.  For example:

Muzzle Device A:  8 of 10 recoil reduction, 2 of 10 in reducing flash, costs around $75 from Company XYZ.   Then any special note/comments on the particular muzzle device (very loud, flash is terrible, almost impossible to find, looks very cool, etc.)

And the same with some of the better AK muzzle devices that require an adapter to use (note the need for the adapter in BOLD).

Here are the ones that I ended up with after spending a LONG time last night, reading through some of the various threads and taking four pages of notes:

Phantom FH
Spear from Zahal
Czech Double Baffle
Ultimate Arms Gear 6 prong defense
Special Forces from Corwin Arms (very hard to find one)
The Zendl/GunExpert one

Of course, I can't rate or compare these, or any others, as I don't have one as yet.  A summary like I mentioned sure would be useful to a new VZ2008 owner!!


« Last Edit: December 16, 2014, 08:12:38 AM by jb2sea »

Offline cciman

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2014, 07:08:47 PM »
On my VZ58 from Czechpoint, it has the "knurled compensator" seen here.



It is very soft shooting, less recoil,  than my SBR AMD56 wearing the

  Granted this is not apples to apples comparison, but I bought another similar knurled comp from CNC (very cheap compared to teh PWS) to try on my AMD to see if this makes a difference.  We shall see.    If there is a difference, I plan on putting one of these knurled units on my AR-7.62x39.

I also have the multipiece Czech special forces unit I bought a while back, but have not tried it yet.


Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2014, 02:00:08 PM »

I also have the multipiece Czech special forces unit I bought a while back, but have not tried it yet.

My guess is that you see and feel the different with the SF brake.  Please report back on your thoughts.
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2014, 03:16:27 PM »
RSR,  I got the JVC camera from the Range Safety Manager and the Stream directory is completely empty.  NO LOVE.  I am as apologetic as I am pissed about this.

To top it off, the range has now closed for the winter (to save on insurance fees - its normally used by LEOs during the week, but no SWAT in winter, go figure), so I don't have a place to shoot right now, unless I piss off the neighbors or coax a buddy to use his place.

Again, Verbal report for reduction in rise and recoil was SF #1, Zendl #2 - tested 6-7 different brakes

SF
Zendl
slant
slovak
nut
straight
cone
AK-74

CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2014, 06:07:03 PM »
Technology is great when it works...  When it doesn't  :o  >:(   :'(

Here's a good slow motion video of the stock AK slant century sends on VZ2008s:

http://youtu.be/kXtO7KLip9M?t=11m5s

Especially visible when he's shooting w/o the stock: http://youtu.be/kXtO7KLip9M?t=12m1s

As you can see it pushes the muzzle down and to the left...  For AKs, it counteracts the movement of the rifle due to the cycling of its off balanced and heavy bolt carrier to help keep the rifle on target.  Far from ideal for the VZ58/2008.  Century included it as they just needed to rethread an item they already had on hand for 922r and was probably cheaper than buying Czech muzzle nuts (the next cheapest option).

Flash hiders are relatively straight forward -- their purpose is to disperse and cool the gases leaving the barrel, making combustion less likely and less concentrated.  While sometimes they do change weapon performance, the effect overall is minor.  FWIW, the combustion we're talking about is 2 fold -- 1) gases from the bore (primarily hydrogen and carbon monoxide) mixing with air (primarily oxygen) and causing a chemical reaction that causes flash and 2) unburnt powder being seen as sparks.  By cooling the barrel gases and reducing the amount of barrel gas/air interacting in any specific place (basic chemistry, heat speeds up chemical reactions), the visible signature of these chemical reactions is reduced -- BUT, it's primarily reduced in the visible spectrum and would still show up on most night vision devices...
Good read on the causes of flash: http://legallyarmedamerica.com/2014/01/10/muzzle-flash-what-is-it-and-what-causes-it/

Flash through the eye and 3rd Gen NVG (fsc does a good job w/ barrel gases, small red glow, but out of that 14.5" barrel, there is quite a bit of unburnt powder -- the flying sparks, so good for illustrating those components too ; first shot from suppressor, there's still quite a bit of oxygen/normal air in the suppressor and until that is displaced by muzzle gases, there is increased flash and noise):


Brakes work by redirecting gases in such a way that it changes how the weapon recoils.  Without a brake, it recoils straight back -- that is, the gases leaving the barrel are propelled largely forward and that pushes the rifle straight back (think like blowing up a balloon); there are other recoil forces like bolt carrier, etc, that are another issue... 
With a brake, there is really only a hole for the projectile and that hole is usually less than 1/3rd the total front are of the brake.  As gases leave the barrel, they immediately expand and follow the path of least resistance.  So the closer brake features are to the bore crown, the greater impact they will have on the brake -- greatest effect in location is seen w/ multiple chambers but its relevant on single chamber brakes as well. 

Also, almost all brakes help to lengthen the recoil impulse which makes it more controllable. 

Baffle type brakes send gas backwards (others will move away from you on the firing line as noise follows the gases...).  The Special Forces brake side ports are directed backwards as well.  This function reduces recoil the most as it effectively pulls the rifle forward, rather than just preventing gas force from pushing the rifle straight back, what other brakes do.

Generally, lateral ports serve to promote muzzle stability, while reducing recoil less than backwards facing baffles/ports.  Upper ports help to combat muzzle rise.  And the rest of the features follow these basics.  Generally, muzzle rise is needed most when taking rapid shots, while muzzle stability and recoil reduction.  Generally, brakes are biased in one way or another, but most combine several features.  The muzzle will always move in the direction opposite of ported.  Ports may cancel out (that's "stabilization" with brakes), and it's relatively easy to tell by looking at them...  For instance, the slovak brake is biased to reduce muzzle rise (it's designed around full auto, and the upwards ports come first, and the area of the side ports is much smaller than than other types of VZ brakes -- fwiw, the slovak type brakes do seem to have smaller lateral port holes than most of the other modern Czech manufactured brakes which makes this muzzle rise biased even more pronounced...

Beyond performance of the brake itself, weight is also a concern.  Heavier brakes result in a more controllable muzzle when firing but also make for a heavier and slower pointing weapon.  Heavier brakes are also generally longer, which allows for a more customized/tailored recoil impulse.  So there's a tradeoff like anything...

Related, special forces works as a flash hider largely by having an inner and outer chamber that helps to disperse and cool the gases (through flash hider portion) before sending through brake ports -- the reason most brakes have greater flashes is that they concentrate barrel gases resulting in more heat/flash.  And a lot of the time those gases are directed upwards to help w/ muzzle rise, so the shooter sees them as well.

Slant brakes are a little different than others -- they work by preventing the muzzle gases from expanding in a certain direction and overall have flash signatures similar to bare barrel...  So w/ the VZ specific slants, they have the protrusion at 6 oclock which pushes more gases to the side and up with the bias towards up, so it reduces muzzle rise. 
*The standard A2 birdcage flash hider w/ solid bottom works similarly to slant, but top birdcage does help to reduce flash, especially for the shooter...

Bottom line, perfection with muzzle brakes is very much in the eye of the beholder...

Essentially, similar discussion as here but for AR:

« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 07:28:37 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2014, 06:16:55 PM »
CNC Warriors Brakes I find interesting:

- Slovak, historical reasons, don't necessarily like conceptual function (just got one in a trade and have yet to try it though, so take that for what it is): http://www.cncwarrior.com/Knurled-Compensator-M14-X-1-RH-p/23263.htm

-Phantom flash hider: http://www.cncwarrior.com/Phantom-FH-w-detent-notches-M14-X-1-RH-p/22292.htm

-Phantom flash hider modular: http://www.cncwarrior.com/Modular-Phantom-Flash-Hider-p/26438.htm
--This will likely result in more flash than the larger standard but does allow you to attach an oil can for a solvent trap.

-Derita Menace brake: http://www.cncwarrior.com/Derita-Menace-Brake-w-detent-notches-p/25176.htm
--Has both flash reduction and braking properties

Otherwise, all the other good/interesting options, to me, are Eastern European or Canadian made.

Bare barrel, A2, and Phantom are all visible here.  The Smith Vortex is shown too, but bear in mind, ammo and barrel length variances all have significant affects on muzzle flash:
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 06:43:25 PM by RSR »

Offline RSR

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2014, 06:33:35 PM »


Here's a pic of several I had at one point.

From L-R (weights in parenthesis if I have them, in ounces):
Baffle (3 1/2 oz)
Slovak Type 2, slit top and larger side ports (3 5/8 oz)
Special Forces 2 Piece (4 oz)
CNCW Phantom
Czech Birdcage (2 oz)
Bulldog (2 1/8 oz)
Century AK VZ2008 Slant
Czech VZ58 Slant (1 oz)
VZ58 OE muzzle nut

« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 06:45:20 PM by RSR »

Offline gwvt

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2014, 07:47:39 PM »
CNCW Phantom (2 1/9 oz)
Century AK VZ2008 Slant (2/3 oz)
VZ58 OE muzzle nut (1/4 oz)
« Last Edit: December 18, 2014, 07:55:42 PM by gwvt »

Offline Airacuda

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #26 on: December 18, 2014, 08:03:55 PM »
Anyone know where I can find the bird cage hider for a VZ?

Offline RSR

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #27 on: December 19, 2014, 04:17:10 AM »
Czechoslovakia?

Sorry, have no idea.  The phantom is a better flash hider.

Offline CitizenPete

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #28 on: December 19, 2014, 05:04:44 PM »
Great info RSR.  The pic with the adapters is something someone else asked an another post I believe.

Any input ideas on a suppressed VZ58?  Still waiting on my Tax Stamp, however I got some general operation feedback from Dan at Czechpoint, since he has shot suppressed.
CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline RSR

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Re: Muzzle Brake/Flash Hider Comparison
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2014, 11:35:23 PM »
About adapters -- AKs have very different recoil impulses than VZ58s, so AK74 brakes for instance -- some folks just have the general profile with 2-3 holes along the center of the top like tapco.  Others, like Kvar replicate the original Russian version where there are 3 holes biased to the right hand side of the weapon.  So the former would likely be a net positive addition to the VZ58 whereas the latter woudl be a net negative...  So just be sure to do some research into the AK brake before you run it -- for instance, I think the FSC 47 lacks any lateral bias, but don't have one on hand to inspect.



https://www.k-var.com/shop/AK-74_Muzzle_Brakes/Compensator

Tapco:


 

anything