It's guys like this who make the rest of us look bad

[bobanddog]

There are those who would try to use this case for their own agendas, but the bottom line is a Montana jury in a Montana court found Markus Kaarma guilty of deliberate homicide in the killing of Diren Dede:
http://www.kpax.com/news/kaarma-found-guilty-101592/
http://www.greatfallstribune.com/story/news/politics/2014/12/17/kaarma-trial-puts-gun-culture-hot-seat/20556447/

I don't know how much national attention the case was getting but because Dede was a German exchange student, it was getting international attention:
http://www.dw.de/diren-dede-killer-convicted/a-18138117
http://flatheadbeacon.com/2014/12/17/montana-student-exchange-program-still-strong/

For those who are unaware of the case, I won't summarize it here because I don't want to turn this into another trial blog.  However, I encourage folks here to look into it, as a case study of someone misinterpreting the intent of the castle doctrine and our stand your ground laws and abusing them to pursue a personal vendetta.  Kaarma even jeopardized his own family, leaving them defenseless and then firing back into his garage from outside, penetrating the interior walls with buckshot.  The whole story is as ugly as it was tragic.     

[cntrydawwwg]

Bobanddog, I couldn't agree more. I was actually starting to think he would have gotten off. Which of course would have helped the Anti's side immensely. IMHO.
   It's one thing to stand your ground and protect your home. But the way he went about doing it was 100% wrong.

[Stogies]

I had a feeling the case would end that way, this was not exactly a hapless home owner woken up in the middle of the night by a burglar.

[frgood]

I think Marbut hit the nail squarely on the head,

"I've been saying all along that we need to let the justice system work and let the trial work it out. That will tell us if Montana gun laws are a problem or not," Marbut said. "The result of this trial demonstrates our laws are not broken." (ref.)

[Alpha Sierra]

International attention is irrelevant to me.  Foreigners have no say in our internal affairs whether they are affected or not.  If they do not like the effect of our laws, or anything else, on themselves, they are free to return to wherever they are from.

Nothing pisses me off more than foreigners pontificating about how our gun laws should be. 

[bobanddog]

Dede's parents thanked Montana for seeing justice was done, and the German lawyer who accompanied them said the system worked, and that a man killed their son, not a place (I paraphrase, as I saw the interview but can't quote it verbatim).

Again, I really encourage people to look into the facts of the case themselves and learn where Mr Kaarma went wrong; which was essentially every step of the way.  It's people like him who cause doubt to be cast on others who legitimately defend themselves or their loved ones. 

[CZ Taji]

It's people like him who cause doubt to be cast on others who legitimately defend themselves or their loved ones.

I disagree with this common misconception/idea on the issue.

People in America cast doubt and more based in essence because of their ignorance, and sheeple behaviours !

prime example of education that clears away doubt so folks can make better decisions are the medical marijuana laws that are being passed all over the country .  Prior to the populace being educated on the issue they had all sorts of misgivings steeped in propaganda, myth, and lies.

SOUNDS FAMILIAR TO GUN ENTHUSIASTS DON'T IT

If we want to change public perception on any issue, and also have the public benefit from that change we have to educate them with the truth.
dispel propaganda/myth and give them a holistic practical picture of reality that's demonstrable .  i FEEL THIS APPROACH SPEAKS TO THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF MOST FOLKS ACROSS THE BOARD without being overly complicated.  Common sense can then help us live with each other & more anti gun folks will become less antagonistic towards the issue at the very least and many will no longer be our enemies in their eyes.

the caps Ninja struck again. oops

[bobanddog]

There is no misconception; Kaarma attempted to use the castle doctrine as a defense, thereby associating himself with those who have legitimately and responsibly exercised force to protect themselves or their loved ones. 

There's little need to change public perception about gun owners in this state.  This is Montana, not New York.  The overriding attitude here is that individual rights come first, but that they also go hand in hand with personal responsibility and accountability. 

Kaarma didn't get it.   

 
 

[mbott]

Kaarma didn't get it.

Actually he did get it in the end. 

--
Mike

[da/sa fanatic]

Not saying I agree with his tactics BUT. If I were on the jury I would have given him a slap on the wrist kind of thing. Not because he doesn't deserve a severe penalty, but to send a message to criminals that the easiest best way to avoid losing your life is to NOT to burglarize others. The trap would not have worked if not for a bad intentioned individual.

[Alpha Sierra]

Not saying I agree with his tactics BUT. If I were on the jury I would have given him a slap on the wrist kind of thing. Not because he doesn't deserve a severe penalty, but to send a message to criminals that the easiest best way to avoid losing your life is to NOT to burglarize others. The trap would not have worked if not for a bad intentioned individual.

I would have gone farther and attempted to nullify by voting not guilty regardless of the evidence.

Our legal system (hint: it isn't about justice) is way too biased towards the criminal.  Voting isn't fixing it, so government needs to be taught a lesson about what "the consent of the governed" really means.

[bobanddog]

I suggest folks really study the case, instead of just the verdict, and discuss why it's important.
 
I am not against the basic intent of castle doctrine, in fact I'm glad it's there if I have to defend myself or my loved ones.  (I will not kill over possessions; they can be replaced, life can't).  However, people who misinterpret and misuse it to the degree Mr Kaarma has are a threat to such laws, not it's friend.  People with agendas against castle doctrine were already trying to use the case to justify changing or repealing it, and I think the guilty verdict really stole a lot of their thunder.  If Kaarma had been found not guilty they would have surely have found it much more useful.  Instead, the verdict proved the legal system worked in Montana and the law is not flawed; a man's interpretation of it was.

People say if Dede had not entered the garage he'd still be alive.  True...  However, if Kaarma had never done or said the things he did before, during and after, and endangered his own home and family so recklessly in his actions, he wouldn't be facing 10 to 100 years in prison.

BTW: Our laws do not punish burglars with the death sentence, and anyone who thinks it should be okay to kill a teenager over 'garage hopping' for beer and pot or real items of value may be surprised to find out which kids end up dead.

[Alpha Sierra]

Society used to be a hell of a lot more civil when disrespecting someone earned you a bullet.

As time goes on we think we become more civilized when the reality is the total opposite.

[bobanddog]

So taking the law into your own hands, and appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner is more civilized?   

Giving someone a 'slap on the wrist' for deliberate homicide, so that it 'sends a message' to criminals?  We can't complain about weak sentencing for non-violent crimes and then turn around demand a weak sentence for taking a life.

By these standards folks, Mr Kaarma himself might have been legally shot and killed when he committed assault years before... or for the other crimes on his own record.  As it stands, our fearless hero was so upset that someone stole his pot and bong (among other things) from his open garage that he took the law into his own hands.  He told people he was losing sleep 'waiting up to kill some kids'.  His girlfriend told people they were going to 'bait' a trap.  They set up motion sensors in their garage, left the door open, placed a purse in plain sight, and waited, night after night.  When someone entered, Kaarma didn't arm himself and stand between his family and the intruder, nor did he enter the garage from the connecting interior door, instead, he left that unguarded, left his family unprotected,  and left the house.  He ran to the front door, grabbing the loaded shotgun that he pre-positioned there, exited, to the front of the open garage, and swept the dark garage with three shotgun blasts, damaging his own property and sending buckshot through the walls into the living space where he knew his girlfriend and baby were.  He fired a fourth shot after a pause of a few seconds.  Dede was hit in the arm from behind, then shot in the head.  Only after the shooting did Kaarma's girlfriend call 911.  There is so much wrong with the way he handled things it's difficult to know where to begin.  Gun owners really need to look into individual cases like this before unquestioningly siding with the gun owner involved.  Just because someone owns a gun doesn't automatically make them right when they use it...  and when they use it wrongly, they arm those who want to disarm you.

Mr Kaarma was given the benefit of a fair trail.  Something he denied to Darien Dede.         

[Stogies]

So taking the law into your own hands, and appointing yourself judge, jury and executioner is more civilized?   

Giving someone a 'slap on the wrist' for deliberate homicide, so that it 'sends a message' to criminals?  We can't complain about weak sentencing for non-violent crimes and then turn around demand a weak sentence for taking a life.

By these standards folks, Mr Kaarma himself might have been legally shot and killed when he committed assault years before... or for the other crimes on his own record.  As it stands, our fearless hero was so upset that someone stole his pot and bong (among other things) from his open garage that he took the law into his own hands.  He told people he was losing sleep 'waiting up to kill some kids'.  His girlfriend told people they were going to 'bait' a trap.  They set up motion sensors in their garage, left the door open, placed a purse in plain sight, and waited, night after night.  When someone entered, Kaarma didn't arm himself and stand between his family and the intruder, nor did he enter the garage from the connecting interior door, instead, he left that unguarded, left his family unprotected,  and left the house.  He ran to the front door, grabbing the loaded shotgun that he pre-positioned there, exited, to the front of the open garage, and swept the dark garage with three shotgun blasts, damaging his own property and sending buckshot through the walls into the living space where he knew his girlfriend and baby were.  He fired a fourth shot after a pause of a few seconds.  Dede was hit in the arm from behind, then shot in the head.  Only after the shooting did Kaarma's girlfriend call 911.  There is so much wrong with the way he handled things it's difficult to know where to begin.  Gun owners really need to look into individual cases like this before unquestioningly siding with the gun owner involved.  Just because someone owns a gun doesn't automatically make them right when they use it...  and when they use it wrongly, they arm those who want to disarm you.

Mr Kaarma was given the benefit of a fair trail.  Something he denied to Darien Dede.       

Smoking pot doesn't help making good decisions it seems?