Author Topic: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out  (Read 7005 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Brasky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« on: June 29, 2015, 07:15:12 PM »
First a disclaimer: I am not responsible for damage, injury, or death caused by anyone's inability to safely modify a firearm. If your firearm blows up, it was not due to following my directions correctly :)

Now how I discovered this:

1) VZ2008 has gremlin
2) Carrier gets tabbed (Forced March did a great job)
3) Gremlin still exists
4) Notice disconnector is bent, replaced disconnector
5) New disconnector seems too "short" and will not engage sear

So solution with steps:

1 ) Ensure firearm is UNLOADED! Remove top cover and bolt (see video here on disassembly: )

2 ) Locate the disconnector and hold it down while you pull the trigger so that it does not move the sear. After you let go of the trigger, let up on the disconnector. Pull the trigger again without touching the disconnector, it should engage the sear. If the disconnector does not engage the sear, it couldbe a cause of the gremlin when shooting if you do not let go of the trigger fast enough before the bolt comes back. Here is a video of the problem (click on the photo):



3 )Why does this happen? The disconnector has a tab that pulls on the sear. Either the disconnector is too short, the sear too thick, or the pins placed too far apart. Here is a photo of the disconnector and sear (I had to use electrical tape to thicken the sear and "recreate" the problem):



Here is a photo of how they are supposed to connect:



Here is a photo of how they fail to connect when there is a problem:



Here is a video on how the disconnector "pulls" the sear



4 ) How to fix? Keep following the disassembly video. Remove the e-clip from the sear pin and punch the sear pin out. The sear will fall out. Note that you do not need to remove the disconnector as in my pictures. Only the sear pin and sear needs removal

5 ) File the edge of the sear that connects the disconnector. File a small amount, sand smooth so there are no burs, and reinstall (don't put the e-clip in yet). If you file too much, I would assume it would cause trigger wobble

6 ) Test the trigger/disconnector as I did in the video

7 ) If everything functions 100% after many test pulls of the trigger, go to step 8. Otherwise repeat steps 5 & 6 until you cannot recreate the problem. Here is a video of how it should work:



8 ) Reinstall the e-clip and reassemble the rifle. Ensure everything functions fine

9 ) Done!

If these videos do not load properly, I can email the files to someone who can feel free to upload these on youtube. Any questions on this procedure, ask!
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 07:24:46 PM by Brasky »

smokemup

  • Guest
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2015, 08:35:02 PM »
Excellent writeup and videos! Tnx!  :)

Offline CitizenPete

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1230
    • Universal Machine Gun Model 59 (UK Vzor 59)
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2015, 09:37:45 PM »
Excellent writeup and videos! Tnx!  :)

Second that.   Thank you for all the time and effort posting this Brasky.  You da man.

THIS HAS HAPPENED to me as well.  Just this past Saturday -- I could feel it, once it hung up and the snapped into place after a second. Maybe it had been on the edge.

I wonder if there are variations between different DCs (or sears) that might contribute to this and/or if this is unique to manufacturing lots of the vz2008? In other words why is this happening with these vz2008s.

Brasky, please remind us what DC you installed to replace the bent DC.  Was it the Bonesteel/CNCW offering, or surplus Czech DC, or something else?

I was considering trying the Zendl DC since I took it out of the CSA for the Morgan trigger/DC Job.

CP

The post above is opinion, and I am probably totally wrong, so please pardon me if I offend anyone in any way. I am speaking only for myself and just sharing my thoughts, not trying to start an argument with anyone, and if you disagree with anything I have said, I concede your correct.

Offline GrendelGene

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 238
  • BEAVER BARF IS BEAUTIFUL!!
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2015, 10:31:21 PM »
GREAT!!!!

Offline JohnEd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2015, 12:42:10 AM »
Brasky,

Thanks a million.  Wish there was a video of how to post that kind of video.  What kind of photo gear do you you use?

I have a Nikon D3100 that has a video mode.  I also have a Samsung 4(? 5) Droid that does video.  What kind of lighting do you have?  I have mag lens that will show you skin pores on photo and small tripods for the bench.  Does that sound like the right gear?

Thanks again for all the time you must have invested for us.

John


Offline Brasky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2015, 07:55:21 AM »
Excellent writeup and videos! Tnx!  :)

Second that.   Thank you for all the time and effort posting this Brasky.  You da man.

THIS HAS HAPPENED to me as well.  Just this past Saturday -- I could feel it, once it hung up and the snapped into place after a second. Maybe it had been on the edge.

I wonder if there are variations between different DCs (or sears) that might contribute to this and/or if this is unique to manufacturing lots of the vz2008? In other words why is this happening with these vz2008s.

Brasky, please remind us what DC you installed to replace the bent DC.  Was it the Bonesteel/CNCW offering, or surplus Czech DC, or something else?

I was considering trying the Zendl DC since I took it out of the CSA for the Morgan trigger/DC Job.

Cnc warrior disconnector. In fact I was about ready to call CNc and complain because it would fail to connect to the sear almost very time

Offline Brasky

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 278
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2015, 07:57:51 AM »
Brasky,

Thanks a million.  Wish there was a video of how to post that kind of video.  What kind of photo gear do you you use?

I have a Nikon D3100 that has a video mode.  I also have a Samsung 4(? 5) Droid that does video.  What kind of lighting do you have?  I have mag lens that will show you skin pores on photo and small tripods for the bench.  Does that sound like the right gear?

Thanks again for all the time you must have invested for us.

John

Hard to believe but it is a cannon Powershot A2300HD (relatively inexpensive, I think it was around $100). The lighting was only my kitchen light!

It takes excellent pictures if the lighting is right

And I had no tripod. I balanced the camera on the receiver and held it while doing this
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 12:57:13 PM by Brasky »

Offline JohnEd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2015, 12:27:37 PM »
You have missed your calling my good man.  Head for Hollywood.

Thanks again,

John

Offline jwc007

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 9367
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2015, 01:03:34 PM »
Excellent Post!  8)  Stickeyed!  :)
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline TJNewton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 551
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #9 on: July 04, 2015, 01:31:53 PM »
Excellent video and info.  It seems that alternately the filing could be done to the disconnector instead of the sear.  Did you choose to modify the sear d/t easier R&R for trial-and-error, or was there another consideration?

It seems that the bottom of the sear could be filed off upward towards the body to shorten the amount that connects to the disconnector, and therefore shortening the trigger pull.  Is this correct?  Would it be safe?

Thanks!

Offline OsteKuste

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2015, 07:08:47 PM »
Per my other thread on having this issue, I was ready to try working on this sear interface next. I watched Forced Marchs video on some other issues, which I discovered I had. Mainly the bolt bottoming out in the receiver and scarring it on either side of the ejector tab ( I think thats what it is called, rides in the middle groove on the underside of the bolt) and on the top of the same ramp. After taking just enough material off the top of the ramp and the bottom of the bolt, again following Forced Marchs video, I showed no contact using Dykem to check for it. I then polished everything, re assembled and now cannot recreate my gremlin. Before I could hold in the trigger, let the carrier lock forward, let off the trigger, then pull the trigger with no effect. Now I get a live trigger every time. I wonder if my bolt and carrier were jumping in the receiver so bad that it was causing my issue? Crossing my fingers till I get to the range!

Offline JohnEd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2015, 09:37:44 PM »
It seems that the bottom of the sear could be filed off upward towards the body to shorten the amount that connects to the disconnector, and therefore shortening the trigger pull.  Is this correct?  Would it be safe?
Thanks!

Just to give you an answer as you don't deserve to be left twisting in the wind....NO!  Would not be the frst time I was wrong, though.  The gap between the DC and the sear when the DC is engaged and all is working corrrectly, will be the fore travel of the trigger.  The "take-up".  You can file off some of the sear  where the DC connects and it will do nothing till you take so much the DC has nothing to catch on.

If you add material to thatr little nub on the DC the DC will not catch on the sear.  Keep filing the DC carefully and get the parts to the point where the DC just barely slips past and engages the sear.  Now your trigger will not travel so far before the DC starts to move the sear.  That will be as good as you can get the sear and DC engagement. 

You want the trigger to "let-off" quicker?  File the bottom of the striker that engages the sear.  That way the sear won't have to move so far to release the striker.  This is the dangerous part.  If they engage with too little area the gun will bump-fire.  BAD!  The striker is fitted to the bolt and the bolt rides on rails.....loosely.  Until you tighten up the rail to carrier and bolt interface then the parts can move around and disengage the striker if you file it off too much.  One of my strikers engages the sear by about 1/8 inch and that is a lot.  Pulling the trigger I need to move the sear a lot before it lets go of the striker.  Filing either the striker or the sear union will get you the same result.  Be careful.  A man has to know his limitations.  I do not profess and Smithing expertise but I do know that two of my rifles have a sear engagement of about 1/16 inch and those triggers seem safe and do let off much quicker.  Both the striker engagement area and the sear engagement area should be "touch filed" to first sharpen the contact edge so it "breaks" most cleanly and ten lap the contacting areas so the let-off is most smooth.  Final step is to blue the stuff and see a large area wipe the blue off.  Grease the connecting patch.  $150 please said the Smith.

There is talk about installing a long thin bolt in the rear of the trigger guard to stop the over-travel of the trigger. 

Offline TJNewton

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 551
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2015, 12:16:15 PM »
Thank you for the in depth answers, JohnEd.  Very insightful and helpful.

As for the bill... I'll gladly pay you Tuesday...

Offline JohnEd

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 635
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2015, 12:38:53 PM »
Thank you for the in depth answers, JohnEd.  Very insightful and helpful.

As for the bill... I'll gladly pay you Tuesday...

NO! NO!  It was the hypothetical Smith that asked....not me.  You can learn to do a ton of stuff worth piles of money on your guns with enuff time.  That is a big treat.  Now discover a Smith that doesn't feel threatened by your interest and is enthusiastic about his craft and supports your curiosity and hobby and you have arrived.  But I know I ain't no Smith cause I have known a few of those

After 4 or 5 guys sit around with coffee and jaw bone this subject on the "particular" gun you get a decent collective understanding. :)  The forum is the collective mentor Smith.  Just be careful as "this" forum Smith isn't bonded.

Offline OsteKuste

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
Re: Gremlin Even With Tabbed Carrier? Check This Out
« Reply #14 on: July 17, 2015, 07:18:25 PM »
I finally got to the range today, and it seems I have removed most of my issues with cleaning up the bolt and carrier. Now I only occasionally have a problem. I figure my sear and disconnector are just barely out of alignment, as I now am getting very few malfunctions as opposed to many in a row. So, now time to follow this advise and work on that sear a bit. Hopefully that will bring me up to 100%!

 

anything