Author Topic: 9mm and Alliant BE86  (Read 4951 times)

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Offline painter

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2016, 03:04:50 PM »
I wouldn't make any assumptions.   ;)

Moderatetly curious?  I assumed your curiosities would be conservative.  O0

Well...which is it? O0
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Offline MR_X

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #31 on: October 08, 2016, 08:06:27 AM »
I tried some yesterday. I did a mid load pushing 115 JHP using SR primers out of my P01. They shot very well and very little recoil. I'm waiting for the weather to improve so I can run them through the chrono.

What is mid-load?

Mid range of the load data.

I am asking for a charge weight.

I'm not a fan of posting load data but since this is one is by the book-ish, I did 5.8gr (didn't want to push to much since I was using SR primers) and seated at 1.100.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2016, 08:08:17 AM by MR_X »

Offline Renron

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2016, 08:41:24 PM »
My feeble contribution to the thread,
All bullets are RMR rn fmj 124gr.
BE-86 powder
CCI Primers
COAL 1.125"
warm day mid to high 80's
shot from S&W M&P shield (carry gun) just picked up my P-01 today! ;)
Chrono ~10 feet away

Powder grains                   FPS
5                                  986
                                   1007
                                   1003
                                   1032

5.2                               1019
                                   999
                                   1036
                                   1038

5.4                               1036
                                   1043
                                   1048
                                   1064

5.6                               1066
                                   1070
                                   1089
                                   1104


I didn't load hotter because I didn't know what this powder would be like. I have always used VV N320 before.
BE-86 burns almost as clean with low flash / no smoke. After testing I bought all the BE-86 the store had. $ is great! $21/lb.
The powder seems to slop out of the case a little during reloading, I'm at fault there. Overall I'm happy with it.
Ron
 

Offline IDescribe

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2016, 10:27:54 PM »
When I started using a chrono, I ran 5 shots per rung of the ladder.  I fairly quickly suspected that was not a significant enough sample size, so I ran some 20-round strings one day.  I cut each string in half, and compared the two ten-round sub-strings to each other and to the twenty round total string.  I then cut each half in half and did the same comparison with the 4 five-round strings.   From this simple test, it appeared there was significant precision to be gained from going up to ten rounds from five rounds, but there was not a significant gain going from 10 rounds up to 20 rounds per string.  Your 4-round strings over the chrono are not going to be particularly precise.  Wobbly has indicated that 8-round strings are a sufficient sampling size, and I think he's holding onto more math than I am, so I'm not saying 10 is the magic number, but 4 rounds is not going to tell you much.

Anyway, IF what you have is a precise enough representation of what those powder charges are doing with those bullets, you have:

5.0gr | 1007 ft/s | ES-46 |
5.2gr | 1023 ft/s | ES-39 | +16  ft/s
5.4gr | 1048 ft/s | ES-28 | +25  ft/s   
5.6gr | 1082 ft/s | ES-38 | +34  ft/s   

5.8gr is fair game by Alliant's data, but in their data you should be about 1170 at that charge, and you won't get there with 5.8gr according to the data we see here.  You might get 1120 with 5.8gr.



« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 07:09:11 AM by IDescribe »

Offline K31Scout

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #34 on: November 17, 2016, 07:03:36 AM »
When BE-86 first appeared, Alliant promoted it as Power Pistol with a flash suppressant.

In other words, the powders are the same, except for the flash suppressant added to BE-86.  The addition of the flash suppressant changes the burning characteristics somewhat, and changes the VMD of BE-86, so the different charge weights are no surprise.
However, they are the same powder, except for the flash suppressant in BE-86.
Will
CZ 75 SP-01

Offline IDescribe

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #35 on: November 17, 2016, 08:52:08 AM »
When BE-86 first appeared, Alliant promoted it as Power Pistol with a flash suppressant.

In other words, the powders are the same, except for the flash suppressant added to BE-86. 

Sort of. ;)  Not exactly. 

Alliant didn't market BE-86 like this.  They actually brought it to market ahead of schedule under pressure of the powder shortage with NO marketing and NO data.  The idea that BE-86 was Power Pistol came from comments made by an Alliant rep named Paul, who responded several times in what became an extensive BE-86 thread at THR.  This Alliant guy Paul said that BE-86 was of the "same magic formulation" of Bullseye and Power Pistol, that its flakes were very close in geometry to Power Pistol, and that they had added a flash suppressant.  That's not the same as as it being Power Pistol plus flash suppressant, which was the internet hub-bub at the time.

To make sense of that "geometry" comment, as well as the "Bullseye AND Power Pistol" comparison, it helps to know something about burn rate.  Powder companies will often using the same formula, the exact same chemical compound, for different powders, but control the burn rate of the powder with different sizes or shapes of the powder particles.  Sometimes, coatings and additives will affect that burn rate, as well.  Basically, given the same chemical compound, the lower the mass is per unit surface area, the faster the burn rate.  Or more simply, the smaller the particle is, the faster it will burn up.  So you could have a series of pistol powders that employ the exact same chemical compound, but by way of an incremental increase in the particle size, have a range in the series from very fast burn rates to very slow burn rates with, again, the exact same chemical compound.  And then you could name them something like N310, N320, N330, N340, & N350.   O0

Anyway... this is apparently what is going on with BE-86.  It uses the same formula as Bullseye.  Power Pistol also uses the same formula as Bullseye.  According to Paul, BE-86 has been produced and used in factory ammunition for 30 years.  When Power Pistol was an OEM powder, its internal name was BE-84.  So it's not that BE-86 is based on Power Pistol.  It means they were both created from Bullseye in close succession.  I suspect that if BE-86 hadn't been rushed to market, it would have had a name other than its internal corporate name.  The BE in BE-84 and BE-86 obviously means "BullsEye" as they are both based on the ancient Bullseye formula.  So while it's more or less true to say that BE-86 is like Power Pistol, but with a slightly smaller flake size and with a flash suppressant added, it would also be more or less true to say that BE-86 is like Bullseye, but with a larger flake size and with a flash suppressant added.  ;)

I think the most accurate summary of what Alliant rep Paul said would be -- BE-86 is a Bullseye formula powder, as was Power Pistol, but close to the burn rate of Unique, and with a flash suppressant.

That Alliant rep Paul also revealed that BE-86 was the powder that Federal used in its .45 ACP 185gr JHP Gold Medal Match ammo, and Speer uses it in their .357 SIG Speer Gold Dot LE Duty ammo. 

There will be a quiz tomorrow. ;)

« Last Edit: November 17, 2016, 11:19:28 AM by IDescribe »

Online Scarlett Pistol

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #36 on: November 17, 2016, 10:24:53 AM »


There will be a quiz tomorrow. ;)

The wealth of knowledge is just too good! Thanks for all the info!

    Last night my wife and I were at the range. First time she has ever come to an indoor range and one of her unsolicited comments afterwards was about my powder (BE-86). She mentioned that the only other gentleman there was shooting a 9mm a few lanes over and was producing a large looking flash (pretty sure it was winchester white box stuff). She said that mine was a much smaller flash with a spark or two and asked why they were different. I think she was concerned I was shooting sissy loads because she later commented that his hands flew back way further than mine in recoil. I told her my powder has a flash suppressant so I don't have a large distracting flash. I also told her it was a pretty stout load, I wasn't running it light to make recoil easier.
    So, to a person who almost never goes shooting the BE-86 flash suppressant was making a big enough difference that she noticed without me telling her to look for it. Just a non-scientific observation.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline Renron

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #37 on: November 17, 2016, 11:21:18 AM »
So glad I found this thread, 
Lots of USEFUL information. Thanks to all for sharing.

When I chronoed my loads I had ~50 rnds of each, had I known better I would have had more data examples for a more precise sampling. I will next time. Thank you for letting me know.

Does anyone know if BE-86 is temperature sensitive like Titegroup? Sometimes I shoot in the snow and sometimes it's 110*.

"5.8gr is fair game by Alliant's data, but in their data you should be about 1170 at that charge, and you won't get there with 5.8gr according to the data we see here.  You might get 1120 with 5.8gr."

I was shooting a Shield which has a 3.1" barrel, wouldn't a longer barrel produce higher velocities? (not sarcastic)
Ron

Offline IDescribe

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #38 on: November 17, 2016, 11:29:51 AM »
I was shooting a Shield which has a 3.1" barrel, wouldn't a longer barrel produce higher velocities? (not sarcastic)


Yes, but whether or not it would make up the missing 50-ish ft/s I don't know.  There are always other factors in play, as well, when we're talking about data for general bullet types rather than specific makes and models, so it's not unreasonable to think you're at least near the ball park.  ;) 

Online Scarlett Pistol

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #39 on: November 17, 2016, 11:33:16 AM »
Does anyone know if BE-86 is temperature sensitive like Titegroup? Sometimes I shoot in the snow and sometimes it's 110*.

With winter being here I can test it in the cold.... Won't have access to heat like that for a while. Utah can get chilly, so I'll try and run out on a cold winter night if one of the members from the really cold states doesn't get to it first.
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline IDescribe

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2016, 11:35:32 AM »

    So, to a person who almost never goes shooting the BE-86 flash suppressant was making a big enough difference that she noticed without me telling her to look for it. Just a non-scientific observation.


In one of the Alliant guy's comments, he said where Power Pistol makes a basketball sized muzzle flash, we should expect BE-86 to produce one the size of of a baseball.  A lot of it depends on ambient lighting.


Offline IDescribe

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2016, 11:41:41 AM »
Does anyone know if BE-86 is temperature sensitive like Titegroup? Sometimes I shoot in the snow and sometimes it's 110*.

 so I'll try and run out on a cold winter night

If you want to check temp sensitivity -- two things.  First is that powders can be reverse sensitive, so unless you know for sure which way this one swings, you would be advised to use a starting load.

Second, shooting in cold temps isn't going to change much.  Igniting cold powder is what's going produce the difference, so if you want to do this, make 20 rounds with the same charge, leave ten of them in your car outside overnight, already loaded in a magazine so that you don't have to handle them with your warm hands, and keep 10 of them inside your house, already loaded in a magazine.  Then drive them out and shoot them, warm ammo first. 

Offline Renron

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2016, 12:15:07 PM »
If you want to check temp sensitivity -- two things.  First is that powders can be reverse sensitive, so unless you know for sure which way this one swings, you would be advised to use a starting load.

Second, shooting in cold temps isn't going to change much.  Igniting cold powder is what's going produce the difference, so if you want to do this, make 20 rounds with the same charge, leave ten of them in your car outside overnight, already loaded in a magazine so that you don't have to handle them with your warm hands, and keep 10 of them inside your house, already loaded in a magazine.  Then drive them out and shoot them, warm ammo first.

This method would test only how cold effects BE-86. I will do this when it gets a little colder, 37* this morning. I will use warm "in house" loads as a control group and put another 20 rounds on the defroster / heater vent to warm past the control group temperature. I will check the case temps of all with an IR scanner. We are planning a family shoot day just after Thanksgiving. I will be more thorough with data accumulation.
Ron

Offline painter

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2016, 12:25:31 PM »
Don't forget, that even with an IR scan of the case, the powder inside might still be cold soaked even after the case warms up.

We see that frequently in the winter when shooting gallery league bullseye with 22's. Some of the shooters aren't able to bring their ammo inside at work. It usually causes cycling issues, which says to me the powder is cold sensitive.

Completely unscientific.
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Offline Renron

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Re: 9mm and Alliant BE86
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2016, 12:46:31 PM »
I'm open to better methodology. (not sarcastic)
The "range" where we shoot is ~1 hr. drive from home. Plenty of time for the defroster to heat 'em up.

If there is an excepted way to perform these tests, I'll do it. I'm just throwing out ideas and learning what NOT to do. :)
It would be nice to know if this powder is temp sensitive.
Ron

 

anything