Author Topic: Mods - are they really necessary?  (Read 1736 times)

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Offline RenegadeDave

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Mods - are they really necessary?
« on: September 07, 2016, 09:00:56 PM »
So I had my SP01 shadow custom and my 75B backup at the range today. 

I ran the same drill (2" dots @ 15 ', from the holster 5 shots on a dot in a 5 second par time, drill is pass fail for the six strings on each seat.). I would like to tell you the shadow made a difference in my ability to put shots on the dots- it didn't.  I shot groups, the shadow did a little better due to me favoring the stock shadow sights to my EZDs on my 75B (too much air, blade is too narrow to reliably align elevation). 

The shadow custom has basically all the FCG mods.  The 75B has an SRS2 kit from CGW, the trigger pin and an RPTRS with me polishing it.  I prefer the shadow due to the mag release being easier to hit and the slight bevel to the magwell, but that's it.  I don't shoot that gun any better than I do my fairly basic 75B. 

I want to build up a match gun and a practice gun that are pretty well the same, but I may just get a Shadow, throw the same grips on it, and put in an extended firing pin/ spring, lighter recoil spring and 13# MS so both guns cycle the same and call it a day.  Anyone else basically "over" it?  Oh and thin safeties because the wings are wretched!


Sent from an iDevice.  Please forgive any grammatical or spelling errors.  If the post doesn't make sense or is not amusing then it is technology's fault and most certainly not operator error.
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Offline dreith92

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2016, 12:16:26 AM »
One of the only mods I wish shadows from CZC came with is an undercut backstrap and trigger gaurd as well as their full FCG package and hand fit barrel...sights are subjective to personal preferances.
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2016, 02:42:26 AM »
Dave,  I also have a Custom "75 Shadow" and a fully worked 75B with all the goodies.
For most of my shooting,  they both shoot well for me,  but each has some minor advantages.

I didn't buy the SPO1 Shadow ( my son has one) because the front end is a little heavy for me when swinging through spread out targets.   Mine had some added weight from .55 bbl but no rail.  I still swing through targets a little easier with my B.  Straight ahead shots are faster with my Shadow.

I did a take-off on your dot drills Tuesday at six yards.  Purpose was to see and stop trigger finger pushes to the left when shooting fast.  I wanted two shots per second Plus the draw and sight time,  so I set par at 5.5 seconds.

On a USPSA target,  I ran 2" wide masking tape vertically from shoulder to bottom,  neck to bottom and from the other shoulder to the bottom.  I put four 2" red stick-ons  equally spaced on each verticle strip of masking tape. Draw and shoot starting at the bottom stick-on and shoot ONE shot at each stick-on going up,  then shoot back down the strip of tape shooting once at each circle:  8 shots per strip.  Going down was the killer because you can't see them until the muzzle clears-so timing was used going down.

My MAIN point was to get all the shots on the two inch masking tape without pushing any left.  Hitting the circles was a plus.  The results were interesting .  on the draw,  I hit or came very close to the bottom circle every time.  The two middle circles I only hit a couple of times each.  I hit the top circle almost as good as the bottom (transitioning from up to back down the tape strip) .  I shot twice per second pretty steadily but had a tendency to speed up on the middle dots to beat the timer buzzer.  I ran over once. 

First run was a litlle awkward, and I did push two of the eight shots a couple of inches left of the tape and one just a little left.  Concentrated on the grip for the draw, especially the weak hand ,  and I pushed two more left,  but just outside the tape. Third run I was on the tape for all the shots.  I did go left just a little 3 more times and went right twice on several more runs, but I showed some improvement.   I alternated shooting this drill with 5 plates and a stop popper at 10 yards.  Concentrating on my grip helped keep the shots closer to centered on the plates.

I'll try it again next week shooting rows left to right and back.  Cool drill,  thanks for the idea.. 

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2016, 05:17:05 AM »
I cannot speak to the Shadow as all my CZ's fall into the standard B/BD series. These guns are service grade weapons and are built within minimum/maximum tolerances and parts can vary within those ranges wildly. My 75BD had a fair trigger when I got it but not great with a good bit of useable creep. My PCR and was just plain bad with a high SA pull and tremendous amount of creep. The others fell somewhere in between those 2. Many claim the triggers smooth out but I never experienced that even after several thousand rnds through each gun. All my CZ's now sport CGW hammers and spring kits and all of them are very close in trigger feel gun to gun which I like especially when practicing with multiple guns.
So are mods "really" necessary? Not especially as the guns will function acceptably as stock but you surely can turn good guns into great guns with some key additions and get a good degree of consistency if you have more than one model. I like the changes I opted to make and feel it was money well spent.

Offline s0nspark

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2016, 12:03:28 PM »
So are mods "really" necessary? Not especially as the guns will function acceptably as stock but you surely can turn good guns into great guns with some key additions and get a good degree of consistency if you have more than one model. I like the changes I opted to make and feel it was money well spent.

I totally agree! I had "acceptable function" with my Glocks but they were the pits to shoot :)

Every CZ I've owned has ended up with CGW parts in it, as does the Canik C-100 I passed on to my daughter, and those "mods' take good guns and turn them into something much more pleasing to shoot. I do not yet have a Shadow - I am saving and planning for a Shadow 2 once they become available in the US - and I will evaluate it as stock before having anything done to it but it will probably get tweaked and tuned a bit just to suit my preferences.

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Offline Canuck44

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #5 on: October 04, 2016, 12:26:35 PM »
For the OP here is something to ponder.

IDPA has to very similar pistol divisions.  One only allows stock pistols.  You can do a trigger job on them and replace the sights.  That is about it.  No external mods are allowed - grips maybe changed or modified.  ESP you can do pretty much what ever you want.  You cannot use optics nor can you add a comp.  Beyond that it is pretty much fill your boots.

The end result.  If you compare the scores shot at the IDPA US Nationals there is virtually no difference between the scores of the shooters.  I am not talking about just the two top shooters but the average  scores.  What this tends to illustrate that all the improvements we often spend our money on has little impact on how we score competitively and how we shoot in practical terms.

Take Care

Bob
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Offline levellinebrad

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2016, 06:12:26 PM »
My opinion is yes. They do make a difference. If you are coming in 2nd by 1 second for the match with a stock gun, the modifications will probably put you in first place. For guys like me, one second on my total match is probably not going to change my overall position at all. I still think it's worth it because it makes shooting so much more enjoyable.
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Offline abb1

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2016, 09:00:29 AM »
I have personally found that mods {with the exception of optics and compensators) do little for actual performance. What they do, is add a personal touch to your gun, making it your gun, and not the same shadow that everyone else is shooting. When investing what we do in firearms, this is like icing on the cake, so why not. I continue to add extra touches to my guns more to add a personal touch rather than for performance purposes. CZ guns already shoot great and accurately right out of the box. Others may disagree with me, but this is just me.
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Online Joe L

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2016, 11:02:06 AM »
Mass produced service pistols are compromises with tolerances.  I modify the guns to match my hands and finger length so that I am consistent in grip and trigger finger position.  If the gun fit me perfectly out of the box, those modifications would not be necessary. 

I have also found that I am more consistent with a 3-3.5 lb trigger pull than a 2-2.5 lb pull and that I don't want a "crisp" trigger break.  Again, that's me.  I do what it takes to get there.  Consistency leads to accuracy. 

Joe
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Offline MontanaCZ

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2016, 11:46:29 AM »
I have swayed back and forth on this, so it does depends on the mods.  However, as I figured out recently, you may need to un-mod a gun.

Gun does not matter for this, but it is not a CZ.  Girlfriend chose her platform late in the 2015 season (first year shooting).  She tried out every pistol I own (or the ex-wife left me with).  Upon purchasing her pistol, immediately modded it with all the fire control goodies, and down to about a 3# pull.  This season she did improve quite a bit, however does have trigger control issues and would be off target (about 8k rounds in a year).

Fast forward to a month ago, and a borrowed spinner (we shoot almost all 3Gun). She has never gotten one over with a pistol, and not always with a shotgun. Part of this practice I handed her a stock gun (same basic model as what she is shooting). Immediately noticed that her typical misses pretty much disappeared. Hmm says I. She also had that aha moment with me talking about trigger prep waiting for the spinner to come around.  Long story short, I put her pistol back to stock, and there was immediate improvement.  Just needed more trigger feedback; not ready yet for a lighter trigger. So, has a 5# trigger now.

Offline 1SOW

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2016, 03:37:08 PM »
Montana, like JoeL often says,  "It's the shooter, not the gun."
Actually,  it may be.  ...   shooter capability  + gun capability  = accuracy results.

Offline Canuck44

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #11 on: November 23, 2016, 11:50:55 AM »
Montana, like JoeL often says,  "It's the shooter, not the gun."
Actually,  it may be.  ...   shooter capability  + gun capability  = accuracy results.

Good points.  In action shooting accuracy is required but in IDPA for example the test is a 8" circle mostly shot between 10 and 15 yards.  I am not saying accuracy is not important but I think I would add "Practical" in front of accuracy.  Your not required to shoot at a one inch circle for maximum benefit.  A looser, perhaps more reliable gun might trump a tight problematic one.  IMHO CZ gets the balance just about perfect with a nod to more accuracy than required.  The guns are that good.

Take Care

Bob
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Online Joe L

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #12 on: November 23, 2016, 04:22:06 PM »
I think I would add "Practical" in front of accuracy.  Your not required to shoot at a one inch circle for maximum benefit.  A looser, perhaps more reliable gun might trump a tight problematic one.  IMHO CZ gets the balance just about perfect with a nod to more accuracy than required.  The guns are that good.

Take Care

Bob

I agree with this.  Even at bullseye matches one sees very tight but problematic guns being shot by sometimes less experienced shooters.  These fellows would be better off with a looser but 100% reliable gun that would allow them to put all their efforts towards execution rather than worrying about when their gun is going to misfeed.  That said, my CZ's are about as good a compromise as I've seen.  I wouldn't want to fight in the sand and dust of the desert with the CZ's, but no problem in the wet and cold.

A good shooter can make a medium accuracy loose gun look really good to a new shooter.  A good shooter can make a tight gun look unbelievably accurate.  A good shooter who is also fast can...well, I don't know, because that isn't me, LOL. 

I make a lot of modifications to make the gun fit my hands.  I do very little that affects the accuracy, other than bushings in the 97 and the 75B.  I've done nothing to affect the accuracy of the P-09s and P-07, but I can shoot them well because I have modified them to achieve a good consistent grip and the correct (for me) trigger reach.  And I have the trigger pull weight and feel that works for me.   But I don't have a clue as to what to do on chambers, land depth, barrel lock up, unlock timing, breech face dimensions and finish, etc.  I leave all that to CZ (and CGW on the 97) and that approach is working out just fine for me. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, several SIG P226's, AR-15, Savage 308 bolt gun,

Offline DeltaGray

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 10:09:53 PM »
I liked the Subject of these posts about Mods and the posts were good, entertaining but serious.  MontanaCZ must have made me say something (the way my mind works at times).
1) MontanaCZ, I was reading posts and watching TV and there was a comment about a 3 Gun but I was thinking that a "spinner" must have been a revolver until I caught on.
2) Joe L, I don't know a 97 from a 75B but I like your posts.  I have a CZ P-09 9mm and it does pretty good so far for 305 rounds.
3) Canuck44, I borrowed two 1" red and round target dots that were stuck on a used target.
I stuck them on one of my paper targets that was placed only at a guessed 5 yards.  My stock P-09 (with 5 rounds) tore up the mid to lower half of the 1" dot (with Winchester factory 115 gr FMJ's).  My second 1" dot "group" with hand loads being tested was not as pretty.  In conclusion, the P-09 is not for sale.  I need to do more 25 yard target punching but I was playing with multiple 9mm's early this week.  My P-09 has not been modified but I did fire two 45 AutoRim shells but need to reload more fodder.  The S&W 625 was tuned and it also knows how to fire .45ACP cases but I use moon clips.
4) In closing, I want to say that Montana CZ got me started to type but do not blame him.

Offline MontanaCZ

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Re: Mods - are they really necessary?
« Reply #14 on: December 28, 2016, 08:13:40 AM »
LOL!!  Never thought to call a Revolver a Spinner..  Of course I do not own one, or ever owned one for that matter.  Someday.  You should look up what a Spinner is (MGM Targets). Heck of a beast, relies on accuracy and timing. We even have doubles where there are two side by side. Can be a mind bender if you work them back and forth.  Some of the better guys can get the spinner swinging, then engage other targets while waiting for the plate to come back.

 

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