Author Topic: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?  (Read 2951 times)

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Offline cz75bmb

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #15 on: February 12, 2017, 08:02:01 AM »
It appears that the Polish Wanad P-83 would share the same issue with the CZ-82.

I own, and sometimes carry a P-83.  From what I have read, that is only an issue if the safety is disengaged.  With the safety on the hammer can not contact the firing pin.  Do you have any info that says otherwise? 

On a p-83, it appears that the firing pin cannot move forward when the safety is *on*, so, there shouldn't
be an issue. 
The method of carry considered in the gunboards.com thread and here in this thread is:  safety-off, hammer-uncocked
(for double-action first shot).

Offline Pilot1

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #16 on: February 12, 2017, 08:59:16 AM »
[On a p-83, it appears that the firing pin cannot move forward when the safety is *on*, so, there shouldn't
be an issue. 
The method of carry considered in the gunboards.com thread and here in this thread is:  safety-off, hammer-uncocked
(for double-action first shot).

Thanks.  I didn't think it was an issue with the safety ON.  As I carry it AIWB, pointed straight at you know what, I wouldn't carry it safety off, even though it is DA first shot. 

Offline cz75bmb

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #17 on: March 07, 2017, 01:13:18 AM »
Czech journal Střelecká revue (Shooting revue) 6/2012 - Monograph on CZ vz. 82 under title "Sad saga of cs. pistol vz. 82" pages 52-53:

http://img10.rajce.idnes.cz/d1002/6/6003/6003485_5eb63ba2eb3a8c224a5db84bbce1bb90/images/Trudnsga82s52.jpg?ver=0
http://img10.rajce.idnes.cz/d1002/6/6003/6003485_5eb63ba2eb3a8c224a5db84bbce1bb90/images/Trudnsga82s53.jpg?ver=0
Igrlik, I would absolutely love to read these, but I do not read/write Czech.  Do you
know someone who could/would translate the two jpg files to English?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2017, 01:15:33 AM by cz75bmb »

Offline fteter

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #18 on: March 08, 2017, 10:25:46 PM »
Regarding the CZ-82 or 83, I've read the info on the design not being drop safe.  But I wonder how relevant the issue is if one keeps it cocked and locked?  Thoughts?

Offline cz75bmb

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #19 on: March 09, 2017, 02:52:32 AM »
Regarding the CZ-82 or 83, I've read the info on the design not being drop safe.  But I wonder how relevant the issue is if one keeps it cocked and locked?  Thoughts?
For the CZ-82, if the safety is on (hammer cocked), it does not appear that the slide can move rearward nor
can the hammer move forward from its cocked position; so, it does not look like there should be an issue
for that mode of carry.
(I have never owned a CZ-83; so, I will have to defer to someone else on the CZ-83.)

Offline Praha1994

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2017, 02:15:33 AM »
This is certainly interesting news.  As noted above by another member, the CA "roster" testing is supposed to include drop-safe requirements.  But the CZ-83 is (miraculously) on the approved roster.

But beyond that, I am wondering why there would be the round chambered/hammer down/double action option, or design, if it's not safe.  I won't be carrying the 83, except for duty days at the range perhaps, but had planned to do so round chambered/hammer down.

Or is the drop-safety margin sufficient, for a service weapon, that it was considered acceptable?

Offline Igrlik

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2017, 02:46:38 AM »
Igrlik, I would absolutely love to read these, but I do not read/write Czech.  Do you
know someone who could/would translate the two jpg files to English?
All thanks to friend from another czech forum:
Rana z milosti - "Coup de Grace"

During the 90’s, when police officers started carrying a round in the chamber after the level of security has taken a turn for the worse, doubts about the vz. 82’s drop safety started to surface in light of multiple accounts of drop-induced accidental discharge with severe consequences. Any deficiency in the design’s safety was initially dismissed by the Czech police management, until in 1998 in an accidental discharge following a drop, a bystander was hit in the head and gravely injured.

During the following examination of the handgun by Prague’s Institute of criminal investigation, it was experimentally proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it was entirely possible for an accidental discharge to occur after said model of firearm was dropped. (Until then, a drop safety test used to be performed in adherence to the TP-VD-637-81, which was the methodology required by the handgun’s technical documentation. The methodology, which specified a number of ways for the handgun to be dropped – all from the height of just one meter – did not cover the worst case scenario: a drop straight on the hammer.) A follow-up investigation revealed that all revisions of the handgun since the start of production were affected by the issue. Every single vz. 82, regardless of whether the hammer mechanism was pre- or post-update, in otherwise acceptable technical condition and carried in accordance with the instructions for use, for example according to the DoD regulation Děl-21-28 „9mm pistole vz. 82,“ can suffer from an accidental discharge after being dropped from a reasonable carry/use height (even less than 1m), if a round is chambered at the time.

This revelation, in light of the past accidents and other challenges faced during the service of the vz. 82 pistol, effectively sealed its service with the Czech law enforcement. Solving the issue would be complicated, among other things due to the fact many of the parts were being manufactured in a number of size categories (disconnector 1-5, sear 1-3, safety 1-4, trigger bar disconnector 1-5, rear sight 1-6) and some of the other parts weren’t interchangeable between all of the revisions of the handgun. That would necessitate the acquisition and use of a wide range of specialized tools, keeping a surplus of different spare parts in stock and employing highly qualified specialized personnel (armorers).

The decision to phase out the vz. 82 pistol from service in the Czech law enforcement (the military and the prison guard were perfectly happy to retain them in active service, and in Slovakia they’re being issued even to this day) was also influenced by the limitations of the 9mm Makarov / 9mm vz. 82 round, particularly its lower penetration and worse immediate incapacitation rate, its unimpressive accuracy and a narrow selection of bullet designs available on the market compared to the standard 9x19 round (9mm Luger). The price of the round compared to the already mass-produced 9mm Luger round was also higher. However, the outdated and obsolete vz. 82 pistols were still in the proces of being phased out by 2002, tied to the distribution of CZ 75 D Compact pistols chambered in 9mm Luger. (The adoption of which by the Czech LE was anything but smooth, but that’s a different story entirely.) A limited number of vz. 82 pistols was still in service by as late as 2008. „Between the years 2002-2008 the rearmament of the entire force was completed,“ confirmed the public relations officer of the Police presidium, Zuzana Součková. Yet according to sources close to Shooter Revue, a certain number of these handguns remains in service with the Ministry of Interior to this day.

Offline steppingcrane

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2017, 03:29:48 PM »
Thanks for the getting the translation Igrlik.  This is very interesting, I went back and tested moving the slide rearward 1/4" or so and sure enough, the firing pin contacts the hammer at a pretty straight angle to push the firing pin in.  Furthermore, the firing pin already just sits below the breech face surface by only a fraction of a mm, so it doesn't seem like it would take much.  When the hammer contacts the firing pin sitting flush at the rear plate, the firing pin does protrude some through the breech face surface.

Offline Comte

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Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2017, 06:45:28 AM »
Igrlik, I would absolutely love to read these, but I do not read/write Czech.  Do you
know someone who could/would translate the two jpg files to English?
All thanks to friend from another czech forum:
Rana z milosti - "Coup de Grace"

During the 90’s, when police officers started carrying a round in the chamber after the level of security has taken a turn for the worse, doubts about the vz. 82’s drop safety started to surface in light of multiple accounts of drop-induced accidental discharge with severe consequences. Any deficiency in the design’s safety was initially dismissed by the Czech police management, until in 1998 in an accidental discharge following a drop, a bystander was hit in the head and gravely injured.

During the following examination of the handgun by Prague’s Institute of criminal investigation, it was experimentally proved beyond a shadow of doubt that it was entirely possible for an accidental discharge to occur after said model of firearm was dropped. (Until then, a drop safety test used to be performed in adherence to the TP-VD-637-81, which was the methodology required by the handgun’s technical documentation. The methodology, which specified a number of ways for the handgun to be dropped – all from the height of just one meter – did not cover the worst case scenario: a drop straight on the hammer.) A follow-up investigation revealed that all revisions of the handgun since the start of production were affected by the issue. Every single vz. 82, regardless of whether the hammer mechanism was pre- or post-update, in otherwise acceptable technical condition and carried in accordance with the instructions for use, for example according to the DoD regulation Děl-21-28 „9mm pistole vz. 82,“ can suffer from an accidental discharge after being dropped from a reasonable carry/use height (even less than 1m), if a round is chambered at the time.

This revelation, in light of the past accidents and other challenges faced during the service of the vz. 82 pistol, effectively sealed its service with the Czech law enforcement. Solving the issue would be complicated, among other things due to the fact many of the parts were being manufactured in a number of size categories (disconnector 1-5, sear 1-3, safety 1-4, trigger bar disconnector 1-5, rear sight 1-6) and some of the other parts weren’t interchangeable between all of the revisions of the handgun. That would necessitate the acquisition and use of a wide range of specialized tools, keeping a surplus of different spare parts in stock and employing highly qualified specialized personnel (armorers).

The decision to phase out the vz. 82 pistol from service in the Czech law enforcement (the military and the prison guard were perfectly happy to retain them in active service, and in Slovakia they’re being issued even to this day) was also influenced by the limitations of the 9mm Makarov / 9mm vz. 82 round, particularly its lower penetration and worse immediate incapacitation rate, its unimpressive accuracy and a narrow selection of bullet designs available on the market compared to the standard 9x19 round (9mm Luger). The price of the round compared to the already mass-produced 9mm Luger round was also higher. However, the outdated and obsolete vz. 82 pistols were still in the proces of being phased out by 2002, tied to the distribution of CZ 75 D Compact pistols chambered in 9mm Luger. (The adoption of which by the Czech LE was anything but smooth, but that’s a different story entirely.) A limited number of vz. 82 pistols was still in service by as late as 2008. „Between the years 2002-2008 the rearmament of the entire force was completed,“ confirmed the public relations officer of the Police presidium, Zuzana Součková. Yet according to sources close to Shooter Revue, a certain number of these handguns remains in service with the Ministry of Interior to this day.

That covers the military 82, but what about the commercial 83?

And the cz83 is perfectly safe in a holster on a belt with a thumb snap. 


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« Last Edit: June 30, 2017, 06:49:06 AM by Comte »

Offline Igrlik

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2017, 03:55:56 PM »
That covers the military 82, but what about the commercial 83?
CZ 83 is by design absolutly the same as vz. 82 - just chambered in 9mm Browning (.380 ACP), 7,65 Browning (.320 ACP) and 9mm Makrov - all with rifled barrel (but there are CZ 83 with polygon, too). So all this above said is valid for both 82 and 83.
And the cz83 is perfectly safe in a holster on a belt with a thumb snap. 
But much more safer is in locked vault  ;)

Offline Lew

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Re: Just read the CZ 82 & cz 50 are not Drop Safe?
« Reply #25 on: August 02, 2017, 06:24:18 PM »
This is the first I've heard of this, and now knowing the fact the CZ-82 and CZ-83 pistols are not drop safe I find a bit disconcerting and disappointing.  I don't carry mine for defense, but if I did I'd want to carry in condition #2, hammer down on a loaded chamber and not in condition #1, cocked and locked, as there is no grip safety for backing up an inadvertent safety lever swipe-off while carrying....especially more likely with the ambi type safety.  For me, carrying a defense weapon in condition #3 empty chamber, is not an option.
Thanks for this info Igrlik.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2017, 06:33:36 PM by Lew »
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