Author Topic: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun  (Read 2398 times)

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Offline rhart

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2017, 07:06:42 AM »
All other things being equal, since there's no way of predicting how many assailants there will be, I'd rather have 17 rounds and an extra magazine than 6 rounds and a speedloader.

It's a comfort thing I guess.

Amen.

Offline rhart

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2017, 07:12:43 AM »
Odds are you'll never be in a gun fight... Let's face it, those who carry do it for other reasons than favorable statistics. That being said, the type of pistol people carry concealed seems to vary based on all sorts of things and the more I hear people talk about it the more interesting it becomes. There are all sorts of great arguments!

Now should I carry a revolver? No way! My rapid fire DA shot sucks and until it is better I wouldn't consider it, but when it does then that might be fun to try. After trying a few types I have settled on my CZ 75 Compact and SP-01 Compact. They are heavy, but I am very confident in my shooting with them, and I've found ways to carry them that are comfortable. As long as someone practices so they are confident in their abilities with their chosen pistol, then power to them, and I like hearing their perspective.

I imagine the odds for some are greater than for others, but realistically I doubt I will ever be forced to use my carry gun. Similar to what Grendel said, it's a comfort thing. As the old saying goes, "better to have it and not need it..."

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2017, 07:19:07 AM »
All BS aside,the best carry gun,is the one you have on you when it is needed. The tragedy exists when someone forgets to strap on their gun because of forgetfulness,or because it is uncomfortable. Then all of a sudden they are in a situation  where they need it. The perfect gun is the one you will carry- 24-7. Im no expert,but I have carried for over 40 years. Scotty   O0 O0 O0

I agree with all but the notion that one might forget their gun. If carrying is that much of an afterthought then that person needs to take things a bit more seriously. Strapping on one's pistol should not become the same mundane task as slipping a wallet into a pocket.
I would also add that the best gun is the one that you will practice with and become proficient with. I know far to many people who think an airweight J frame is just the perfect gun to pack the problem is it's one of the hardest guns to master and these guys are carrying guns that they haven't put 30 rounds through. Yikes!!

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2017, 09:08:34 AM »
All BS aside..... The perfect gun is the one you will carry- 24-7..........

I think in a nutshell this may be more the issue....I feel the desire/need to have something that I want to carry for some "basic level" of protection versus something I could carry to "possibly" cover the "what if" scenarios.......same reasoning could be said for most anything in life I suppose, example being a vehicle, you start with a basic platform and add to it based on wants or needs....the basic platform will normally suffice in a utilitarian way but if wanted, different bells & whistles are available.......yes??
« Last Edit: February 16, 2017, 09:23:39 AM by CZ Aficionado »

Offline RenegadeDave

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2017, 03:08:22 PM »
I carry a 75B because it's a good analog for my competition gun.  I'd rather have more ammo on hand than less.  I am big enough where I can make it go away. 
Check out my Youtube channel! I geek out on CZ's and post match videos. 
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2017, 03:46:10 PM »
All BS aside..... The perfect gun is the one you will carry- 24-7..........

I think in a nutshell this may be more the issue....I feel the desire/need to have something that I want to carry for some "basic level" of protection versus something I could carry to "possibly" cover the "what if" scenarios.......same reasoning could be said for most anything in life I suppose, example being a vehicle, you start with a basic platform and add to it based on wants or needs....the basic platform will normally suffice in a utilitarian way but if wanted, different bells & whistles are available.......yes??

This ^^^^^ PLUS a handgun that shoots easily for YOU when under stress.  NOT a bullseye gun,  NOT a spray-and-pray gun.  One that points and shoots well at distances that make sense for your situation.

Offline tpelle

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2017, 07:32:04 PM »
I pretty much always carried a 1911 in .45ACP - generally with ball ammo for reliability - for most of the year.  In summer I would switch to either a Makarov in 9X18 or a Bersa .380.

With the way things are going - heading towards a breakdown in society, it seems - I came to believe that 7 or 8 rounds along with one reload might just not be enough.  I started carrying my Hi Power but decided I might like to have something that was DA for the first shot, so looking at prices and availability I decided that a CZ 75 B would be the best choice - just a slight bit bigger that the Hi Power, but with 33% higher capacity and DA.  Then CZ started bringing in the CZ 83 again, so first I scored one of those.  Then, about a year later, I picked up that 75 B.

I carry them both IWB, and have no issues making them disappear.  I'm about 6'-2" and 278 pounds, with very wide shoulders, so a XXL-Tall T-Shirt over an undershirt makes 'em disappear.  The CZ 83 goes in a Falco IWB, and the 75 B in an Israeli Yamam IWB holster.

Offline The Conservative

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #22 on: February 18, 2017, 02:56:42 PM »
I have come to believe more is better.  Part of the reason I switched from a single stack .45 to a double stack 9mm recently.
“The projectiles need to go where they will make the guy leak the quickest.  Your goal is to depressurize the circulatory system – let air in, let fluid out. Bonus points for any other disruptions, but don’t count on them.”   Pat Rogers

Offline handgun2

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2017, 08:42:32 PM »
Great conversation guys!  please continue.. I am learning!

K in MI

Offline stater61

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #24 on: February 20, 2017, 06:08:50 AM »
 I'm new here and I usually stay out of these kind of discussions because they can get kind of heated. It seems to be different here (hopefully) and I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, but just the readership as a whole, so here goes.

 From the time I grew up in bars until part way through my LE career revolvers were still the thing to have "Those darn automatics would just jam on you and get you killed". Eventually things progressed and the guns themselves got better with time also. It's few and far between if you can find a revolver in a cops holster these days, although there are some, mostly in smaller cities. Cops used to have 38 specials with cartridge loops, not even speed loaders, then things seemed to go to magnum cartridges, at least here in parts of the west. It was "knockdown" power that was wanted. I carried 357 magnums and was even issued a 41 magnum at one time and worked with some guys that carried 44 magnums.

 We eventually found out the obvious which was that they had too much recoil, muzzle rise, over penetration and most people couldn't shoot them worth a hoot, much less reload one in any kind of a hurry especially under stress. Could you imagine a city, state, or county that would issue you a 41 magnum in todays society. Slowly but surely semiautomatics, new training ideas and techniques began to gain traction, blah, blah, blah......and here we are today.

 The point being that things progress, whether we want them to or not or despite how things were in the old days. There is a reason cops don't by and large carry something that holds 5 or 6 rounds anymore, and one of the many reasons is capacity. As stated I started in LE with a six shot revolver, went to a Browning Hi Power when capacity or 9mm wasn't popular but it worked. I then went to a 1911 due to what we were issued on SWAT. I eventually wandered over to the Glock camp mostly because of capacity. If you've noticed there is a recurring theme here.

 I can't think of every reason I've come up with over the years that having a larger amount of capacity can help overcome a lot of scenarios. Don't get me wrong it's not the end all be all thing that will keep you out of trouble or save your tail every time. Awareness, tactics, marksmanship, getting off the X or not being where you really shouldn't be, etc., etc. can probably save you more than having 50 rounds on your person. However we're human and sometimes we get in a predicament or something happens that we really couldn't foresee.  It used to be that the biggest thing to worry about was a mugging or strong arm robbery. A J-frame used to be thought of as all you need, "because everything happens in 6 feet or less".

 Well things are a changing, it's multiple threats, usually armed threats and threats with better tactics that is more the norm now. I do realize this doesn't happen every time, but enough that it should be a concern to be prepared for. Bad guys are still shooting people at 6 feet or less, but they're also shooting people at a lot farther distances also like across the street, across the parking lot, drive by's, on and on. Would you really want to respond with a J frame with no real sights to speak of, short sight radius (shaking like a dog, understandably so), 5 shots, moving..at least you should be, unless behind cover, slow reload.
 
 Speaking of reloads there was a study done on drug cartel on drug cartel shootings in Mexico. The average distance of shots fired was 50 to 100 yds. IIRC. An inordinate number of deaths occurred during these fights while the deceased was trying to perform a reload. Either they weren't proficient enough or a lot of them had their magazines that they were going to use hit by gunfire and rendered the magazine useless. Admittedly these were rifle magazines carried in chest rigs or bandoliers. I seriously doubt many of you are going to be battling drug cartels in the streets, but my point is that having to perform a reload puts you in even more danger, especially if you're having to do it slowly or more often (no matter how many speed loaders or 6-7 shot 380acp magazines you're carrying) and the more bad guys the more danger. There is something that can be said for getting lead down range in a rather quick manner, preferably accurately. Or what if your 20 rd. magazine malfunctions on your wonder gun, do you have at least one spare if not more, on your person, not in the glove compartment.

 I don't remember the statistics offhand but most people in a gunfight including police officers miss their intended target by at least a third of their shots, if not more. So if you have a 1911 with an 8 round magazine and you're attacked by 3 muggers, especially if one or more of them have a weapon, you better be an above average gunfighter, not just an above average shooter, there is a difference. Lets say you are an above average shooter, what about the bad guy(s) that doesn't go down with 1 or even 2 shots in him, happens more often than not. Again a blue haired old lady may prevail with her 1911, J frame, or 6 shot 380, but that's definitely not the norm and I wouldn't put any money on it.

 I also believe from experience that them good ole "only real guns shoot cartridges that start with a 4" guns and larger are harder to shoot accurately, through recoil and are harder and slower to get back on target and make successive, accurate hits with. Not that it can't be done, it's just harder for mere mortals, I know, I know, you're not that guy :D  But seriously most people including myself can shoot a softer recoiling, softer cycling gun more accurately and faster. Which leads to another thing that I believe from experience, that larger calibers or larger cartridges are not the end all be all either.

 I'm sure most of you have heard somewhere that there isn't a lot of difference between wounds in human body tissue from one handgun cartridge to another. I can say from what I've seen and discussed with others that this is true. I've been to crime scenes, autopsies, ER's and operating rooms and discussed the subject with Dr.'s and surgeons during the process of being a police officer and an EMT previous to that. Most of them tell me that they can't tell much difference in tissue damage from a 10mm to a 45acp from a 45acp to a 9mm but rifle and shotgun wounds are an entirely different matter. I do believe that with a handgun a certain depth of penetration is important, making bullet choice important and some cartridges not adequate. Lets face it .22 caliber wounds are much more deadly than given credit for, but usually not quick enough to save you in a deadly confrontation, of course some head shots not withstanding. A static head shot is very doable, especially in a proactive role but when it's bobbing weaving and in motion, you're adrenaline is off the chart, it's a lot harder obviously.

 I never understood the reasoning behind some choices of carry guns and cartridges. If you're going to bother with carrying why not carry to the best of your advantage. Some people only carry if they think they're going to be somewhere dangerous or only carry a J frame or a small 380 because nothing ever happens here anyway and anything bigger is just too uncomfortable. With that thinking you may as well carry one of those belt buckle size .22 revolvers in your shirt pocket with no reload of course. All this thinking does is give you a false sense of security, thinking I'm doing something. I wish I knew when I was going to be attacked beforehand as I wouldn't be there or I'd have a lot more than a handgun with me if I couldn't avoid it. In my mind defensive carry is a lifestyle or a mindset. Either you get it or you don't, it's either more important than being totally comfortable or it's not, it's either more important to be prepared for myself and my family's safety than to just rely on statistics that stuff just doesn't happen here, or it's not. People usually have health, car, home insurance (if not state mandated) for something that probably won't happen either, but that's a different mindset that seems to be more accepted by society in general. We just don't think things are going to happen to us
.
 As someone previously stated in this thread, the world ain't what it used to be, and our threats are changing and multiplying from when the J frame was king. Maybe being a cop you see the reality of the human mind more or more often than someone who isn't in law enforcement, and the truth of the matter is something probably isn't going to happen to you, and especially if you live in certain areas. However I believe there are a lot of dead or maimed people who wish they had been more prepared for the violence they met whether they believed it would happen or they didn't.

 I'm not the authority on police matters, tissue wounds, ballistics, tactics or anything else I guess but I've been around awhile, trained with various agencies, schools, etc. investigated crime and done a lot of different things in my life . I've been out of law enforcement a whole lot longer than I was in law enforcement but I feel that I have some basis to make my decisions on, as right or wrong as they may be. I have made my decision on what to carry and how much to carry based on those experiences. I have come to the conclusion that recoil, muzzle rise and capacity are the things to strive for, obviously in a handgun that fits you and you shoot well. I'm not saying you have to carry 2 guns and 4 or 5 magazines on you at all times or that you can't do this with anything larger than a 9mm. You obviously make your decisions on your own experiences, I won't judge you or badmouth you on the decisions you may make, I may not quite understand them or agree with them but ultimately it's you and your family that will have to live with them.

 I'm sure a lot of you will feel differently than I do about some or a lot of this and again I'm not judging anyone or going to try and convince you to believe my thoughts or do things my way as I know it may not be for you, and I have no problem with that. I'm merely laying out how I came to the conclusions I did after having different ideas about guns and cartridges and manners of carry over the years.

Offline rhart

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #25 on: February 20, 2017, 07:39:41 AM »
I'm new here and I usually stay out of these kind of discussions because they can get kind of heated. It seems to be different here (hopefully) and I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, but just the readership as a whole, so here goes.

 From the time I grew up in bars until part way through my LE career revolvers were still the thing to have "Those darn automatics would just jam on you and get you killed". Eventually things progressed and the guns themselves got better with time also. It's few and far between if you can find a revolver in a cops holster these days, although there are some, mostly in smaller cities. Cops used to have 38 specials with cartridge loops, not even speed loaders, then things seemed to go to magnum cartridges, at least here in parts of the west. It was "knockdown" power that was wanted. I carried 357 magnums and was even issued a 41 magnum at one time and worked with some guys that carried 44 magnums.

 We eventually found out the obvious which was that they had too much recoil, muzzle rise, over penetration and most people couldn't shoot them worth a hoot, much less reload one in any kind of a hurry especially under stress. Could you imagine a city, state, or county that would issue you a 41 magnum in todays society. Slowly but surely semiautomatics, new training ideas and techniques began to gain traction, blah, blah, blah......and here we are today.

 The point being that things progress, whether we want them to or not or despite how things were in the old days. There is a reason cops don't by and large carry something that holds 5 or 6 rounds anymore, and one of the many reasons is capacity. As stated I started in LE with a six shot revolver, went to a Browning Hi Power when capacity or 9mm wasn't popular but it worked. I then went to a 1911 due to what we were issued on SWAT. I eventually wandered over to the Glock camp mostly because of capacity. If you've noticed there is a recurring theme here.

 I can't think of every reason I've come up with over the years that having a larger amount of capacity can help overcome a lot of scenarios. Don't get me wrong it's not the end all be all thing that will keep you out of trouble or save your tail every time. Awareness, tactics, marksmanship, getting off the X or not being where you really shouldn't be, etc., etc. can probably save you more than having 50 rounds on your person. However we're human and sometimes we get in a predicament or something happens that we really couldn't foresee.  It used to be that the biggest thing to worry about was a mugging or strong arm robbery. A J-frame used to be thought of as all you need, "because everything happens in 6 feet or less".

 Well things are a changing, it's multiple threats, usually armed threats and threats with better tactics that is more the norm now. I do realize this doesn't happen every time, but enough that it should be a concern to be prepared for. Bad guys are still shooting people at 6 feet or less, but they're also shooting people at a lot farther distances also like across the street, across the parking lot, drive by's, on and on. Would you really want to respond with a J frame with no real sights to speak of, short sight radius (shaking like a dog, understandably so), 5 shots, moving..at least you should be, unless behind cover, slow reload.
 
 Speaking of reloads there was a study done on drug cartel on drug cartel shootings in Mexico. The average distance of shots fired was 50 to 100 yds. IIRC. An inordinate number of deaths occurred during these fights while the deceased was trying to perform a reload. Either they weren't proficient enough or a lot of them had their magazines that they were going to use hit by gunfire and rendered the magazine useless. Admittedly these were rifle magazines carried in chest rigs or bandoliers. I seriously doubt many of you are going to be battling drug cartels in the streets, but my point is that having to perform a reload puts you in even more danger, especially if you're having to do it slowly or more often (no matter how many speed loaders or 6-7 shot 380acp magazines you're carrying) and the more bad guys the more danger. There is something that can be said for getting lead down range in a rather quick manner, preferably accurately. Or what if your 20 rd. magazine malfunctions on your wonder gun, do you have at least one spare if not more, on your person, not in the glove compartment.

 I don't remember the statistics offhand but most people in a gunfight including police officers miss their intended target by at least a third of their shots, if not more. So if you have a 1911 with an 8 round magazine and you're attacked by 3 muggers, especially if one or more of them have a weapon, you better be an above average gunfighter, not just an above average shooter, there is a difference. Lets say you are an above average shooter, what about the bad guy(s) that doesn't go down with 1 or even 2 shots in him, happens more often than not. Again a blue haired old lady may prevail with her 1911, J frame, or 6 shot 380, but that's definitely not the norm and I wouldn't put any money on it.

 I also believe from experience that them good ole "only real guns shoot cartridges that start with a 4" guns and larger are harder to shoot accurately, through recoil and are harder and slower to get back on target and make successive, accurate hits with. Not that it can't be done, it's just harder for mere mortals, I know, I know, you're not that guy :D  But seriously most people including myself can shoot a softer recoiling, softer cycling gun more accurately and faster. Which leads to another thing that I believe from experience, that larger calibers or larger cartridges are not the end all be all either.

 I'm sure most of you have heard somewhere that there isn't a lot of difference between wounds in human body tissue from one handgun cartridge to another. I can say from what I've seen and discussed with others that this is true. I've been to crime scenes, autopsies, ER's and operating rooms and discussed the subject with Dr.'s and surgeons during the process of being a police officer and an EMT previous to that. Most of them tell me that they can't tell much difference in tissue damage from a 10mm to a 45acp from a 45acp to a 9mm but rifle and shotgun wounds are an entirely different matter. I do believe that with a handgun a certain depth of penetration is important, making bullet choice important and some cartridges not adequate. Lets face it .22 caliber wounds are much more deadly than given credit for, but usually not quick enough to save you in a deadly confrontation, of course some head shots not withstanding. A static head shot is very doable, especially in a proactive role but when it's bobbing weaving and in motion, you're adrenaline is off the chart, it's a lot harder obviously.

 I never understood the reasoning behind some choices of carry guns and cartridges. If you're going to bother with carrying why not carry to the best of your advantage. Some people only carry if they think they're going to be somewhere dangerous or only carry a J frame or a small 380 because nothing ever happens here anyway and anything bigger is just too uncomfortable. With that thinking you may as well carry one of those belt buckle size .22 revolvers in your shirt pocket with no reload of course. All this thinking does is give you a false sense of security, thinking I'm doing something. I wish I knew when I was going to be attacked beforehand as I wouldn't be there or I'd have a lot more than a handgun with me if I couldn't avoid it. In my mind defensive carry is a lifestyle or a mindset. Either you get it or you don't, it's either more important than being totally comfortable or it's not, it's either more important to be prepared for myself and my family's safety than to just rely on statistics that stuff just doesn't happen here, or it's not. People usually have health, car, home insurance (if not state mandated) for something that probably won't happen either, but that's a different mindset that seems to be more accepted by society in general. We just don't think things are going to happen to us
.
 As someone previously stated in this thread, the world ain't what it used to be, and our threats are changing and multiplying from when the J frame was king. Maybe being a cop you see the reality of the human mind more or more often than someone who isn't in law enforcement, and the truth of the matter is something probably isn't going to happen to you, and especially if you live in certain areas. However I believe there are a lot of dead or maimed people who wish they had been more prepared for the violence they met whether they believed it would happen or they didn't.

 I'm not the authority on police matters, tissue wounds, ballistics, tactics or anything else I guess but I've been around awhile, trained with various agencies, schools, etc. investigated crime and done a lot of different things in my life . I've been out of law enforcement a whole lot longer than I was in law enforcement but I feel that I have some basis to make my decisions on, as right or wrong as they may be. I have made my decision on what to carry and how much to carry based on those experiences. I have come to the conclusion that recoil, muzzle rise and capacity are the things to strive for, obviously in a handgun that fits you and you shoot well. I'm not saying you have to carry 2 guns and 4 or 5 magazines on you at all times or that you can't do this with anything larger than a 9mm. You obviously make your decisions on your own experiences, I won't judge you or badmouth you on the decisions you may make, I may not quite understand them or agree with them but ultimately it's you and your family that will have to live with them.

 I'm sure a lot of you will feel differently than I do about some or a lot of this and again I'm not judging anyone or going to try and convince you to believe my thoughts or do things my way as I know it may not be for you, and I have no problem with that. I'm merely laying out how I came to the conclusions I did after having different ideas about guns and cartridges and manners of carry over the years.

This all makes sense to me.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #26 on: February 20, 2017, 07:55:11 AM »
^^^^I get the point or most of it but I'll continue to carry my PCR 98% of the time and when dress prohibits I'll carry the J frame and if I find myself out gunned that's on me. If it was practical to carry my riot gun loaded with 3 in. mag slugs I would but it isn't.

Offline Grendel

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #27 on: February 20, 2017, 08:59:27 AM »
I'm new here and I usually stay out of these kind of discussions because they can get kind of heated. It seems to be different here (hopefully) and I'm not speaking to anyone in particular, but just the readership as a whole, so here goes....


A long way of saying more is better than less.
Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges - Tacitus

Inter arma enim silent leges - Cicero

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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #28 on: February 20, 2017, 09:52:36 AM »
OP, let's do a logic check.

The odds of your ever needing to use your concealed carry pistol are SUPER low, BUT the penalty for playing the odds and losing is your life or the lives of others, so you choose to carry anyway.

The odds of your needing more than 5 rounds in a CCW defense scenario is low, BUT the penalty for playing the odds and losing is your life or the lives of others, so you choose to... wait a minute... you're betting WITH the odds this time, despite the penalty.

The logic of the choice to limit yourself to five rounds seems to be the opposite of the choice to carry concealed to begin with.  ;)


At the end of the day:

No one has ever had to use a firearm for lethal lethal force in defense of their life or the lives of others, then after the event commented "I wish the gun had held less ammo."

No professional has ever gone into a scenario where they expected lethal force might be needed and thought "I really wish my firearms held less ammo."

Food for thought.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2017, 10:13:21 AM by IDescribe »

Offline delphidoc

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Re: Large capacity vs Less capacity.....for a carry gun
« Reply #29 on: February 20, 2017, 10:03:22 AM »
After trying a few types I have settled on my CZ 75 Compact and SP-01 Compact. They are heavy, but I am very confident in my shooting with them, and I've found ways to carry them that are comfortable.

What holster do you use for your SP-01 Compact? IWB or OWB? I'm considering getting aIWB holster for mine- a first for me. I'm also thinking about just using OWB and a floppy shirt to cover it.