Author Topic: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K  (Read 405 times)

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Offline MikeLW

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Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« on: February 26, 2017, 01:47:14 PM »
Sorry no pics yet. I've got a few pics on my iphone but it quit playing well with my macbook and I'm not very good at tapatalk. I'll try again.

I bought the rifle I was willing to pay for and bought the scope that was on sale. Been having a lot of fun for 4 or 5 months working my way towards 1K yards.

Remington 700 Tactical 308 w/ 20" heavy barrel. 12" twist. Weaver 20 moa extended base zeroed at 100 yards. Weaver Tactical low rings. Vortex Diamondback 4-12 X 40 AO w/ 1" tube and Dead-Hold BDC. Caldwell bag set w/ walnut media.

Federal Premium Gold Metal Match w/ 175 SMK BTHP. I don't remember the actual muzzle velocity but the box says 2600 fps. My loads are 2.810 OACL / 44.4 Varget / 175 SMK BTHP / CCI Primer @ 2630 fps. They are a little longer than factory and jump a little less but anything I run makes a ragged hole at 100 yards.

I used the Vortex holdover dope for 10" steel @ 400 yards  and 12" steel @ 480 yards for a few range trips. This was my first time to shoot this far and it was a complete success.

Then I used the Federal Premium dope to dial up 8.3 moa @ 400 yards steel. Dialed up 12.0 moa at 500 yards steel. This was my first time to dial up and it was a complete success.

Today I Set up a 18" steel target and a 12" shoot-n-see on a 36" paper back at 1000 yards. My chart called for 39.1 moa but my scope only went to 39 and ran out of clicks. Three shots at steel and 3 shots at paper with no spotter / helper. I forgot that i was .1 moa shy but wasn't too concerned. I hit nothing. I could find no sign of a bullet mark or dirt scrape anywhere. My friend on the phone said he wasn't surprised because of the wind. It was probably an issue and I probably need to try again on a calm day. I wish I had more feedback from a miss like some indication.

I originally wanted a SWFA 12X scope but found out it has mil turrets and I probably want to stick with moa. I guess I need a 30mm tube to get enough elevation. I'm tempted to use what I have with a combo of dial-up and hold-over. Thanks for any input.

Offline stater61

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2017, 05:14:04 PM »
 I have done quite a bit of long distance shooting and have loaded for friends that have had that exact same rifle. Admittedly I haven't done much at all with long distance in the last year or so. The long distance game can be quite a rabbit hole, but fun, addictive and most certainly expensive, at least to have much success in it. I used to teach/coach people at the range in the town where I used to live. I 'm going to be somewhat brief but feel free to PM me for my phone number if you have any questions or want more information.

 It sounds as though you're happy with your loads but I would group them at father than 100 yds. I've had 100yd groups that were pretty good but didn't hold up at distance. There are ways to develop loads that are generally better for distance than 100yd grouping. That is a whole different subject. If you want to ever try a different handload I found one that worked extremely well in 4 different Remington's just like yours. All the usual disclaimers apply here also. Definitely work up to this, or any load in your rifle. For 20" barrels I use 44.8 grs Varget in Winchester brass, Federal Gold Medal Match primers at 2.22 to the ogive. If memory serves me well I think that's pretty close to factory COAL. I've had good luck with Federal non match primers also. All the same above except 44.6 gr Varget in a 26" barrel. You are using the correct weight bullet for distance, the 168's just don't hold up as well for 1000yds or more.
 
 You should also make sure that your scope is tracking correctly, I've seen some somewhat expensive scopes that didn't. There are tons of articles and probably videos on the subject. The more expensive scopes usually have somewhat better glass than less expensive, but the real reason to spend money on a higher end scope is its tracking ability. If you don't have repeatability every time you don't have anything in the world of distance shooting. FFP, SFP, MOA, Mil Rad, is another deep rabbit hole, but hold over reticles make your job harder much harder in my opinion. An MOA or Mil Rad reticle in even graduations is much easier to use. Obviously you're right a 30 or 34 mm tube will give you more vertical adjustment. You may even get away with a 30 MOA picatinny rail and keep your 100yd zero but I'm not sure. I won't get into it in this post but it's definitely better to use 100yd zero versus anything farther for shooting where you are constantly moving your turrets.

 Until you get things on track and figure out what MOA corrections you need at your elevation a spotter is invaluable, but I know not always possible. It really helps to be shooting into dry dirt with a bank behind your target again not always possible but get as close to that scenario as you can. The corrections you use to get hits today are not necessarily the ones that will get you there tomorrow or even in a couple hours on the same day. Atmosphere, elevation, etc., changes can make a significant difference in your dope. Your phone with a local weather app is pretty important, or a Kestrel meter, is better.

 A ballistic app on your phone or Kestrel is almost invaluable also. If you don't have one or even if you do the JBM ballistics program is almost a must have and it's free also. I suggest if you haven't already used this program you get online and get familiar with it. It will make your life much easier. Even for hunters that aren't dialing a turret all the time it's pretty darn useful. There are a couple of youtube videos that will help with that.   and 

 One thing you'll find is that unless you tailor your dope to your rifle and loads you'll just be guessing. The calculations on the box of ammo is just a generic statistic and you'll be very lucky if it matches your rifle and elevation, etc.

 One of the most important variables in distance shooting is the wind, there are many but the wind is a constant variable even if you shoot at the same place at the same time every day. The wind is the probably the biggest reason the .308 is one of the hardest commonly used cartridges to shoot accurately at distance. That is the reason that most big shoots have a separate division for .308 rifles. My last two .308 rifles somehow both shot 2713 fps with a 175 SMK. At 1000yds 1 mph of wind would move the bullet 11-1/2" at my elevation. If you're holding center on a 12" target and you miss a wind call by 1 mph you've just missed the target assuming everything else was perfect. My 6.5 Creedmoor's under the same conditions with a 140 Berger will move my bullet 5.2". The good thing about starting out with a .308 is if you stick with it you'll get a lot better at calling wind.

 I think your friend is right I wouldn't get too worried yet, but I'd find a spotter if at all possible. The other thing is if at possible it would be wise to take a class on distance shooting if you can. Rifles Only used to have online classes that were pretty good, I think they still do I haven't checked in years. If possible go to their school in Texas, Jacob is a excellent instructor. This may not seem brief but it just barely touches on the subject.



 



« Last Edit: February 26, 2017, 05:21:19 PM by stater61 »

Offline MikeLW

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2017, 09:00:13 PM »
It doesn't seem brief and I appreciate you touching the bases. I know I've got some work to do and I know the 308 is not the best choice for 1000 yards. I think I'll have fun trying.

I'll check out those videos. Thanks!

Offline stater61

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2017, 10:20:34 PM »
 I didn't mean to sound like I was dissing your rifle or cartridge choice, I shot that for years, several Remington's and Accuracy International's. I was just trying to get across the importance of wind correction. 308 is a fun and useful cartridge, fairly easy to load for and there is a metric ton of info online for that cartridge also. It will help you learn how to call wind better and that's always a good thing.

 I'm sure you'll enjoy the rifle and learn a ton about distance shooting at the same time.

Offline MikeLW

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2017, 10:25:36 PM »
I didn't mean to sound like I was dissing your rifle or cartridge choice, I shot that for years, several Remington's and Accuracy International's. I was just trying to get across the importance of wind correction. 308 is a fun and useful cartridge, fairly easy to load for and there is a metric ton of info online for that cartridge also. It will help you learn how to call wind better and that's always a good thing.

 I'm sure you'll enjoy the rifle and learn a ton about distance shooting at the same time.

No Bro, I didn't think you meant anything negative at all. Thanks for the good words and the help.

Offline Joe L

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #5 on: February 27, 2017, 09:30:20 PM »
Stater61--thanks for the detailed post.  I've got a 24" .308 that I hope to try out to 1000 yards some time.  I think I have enough scope adjustment for it.  I have enough trouble in the wind now at 500 meters.  Thanks for the encouragement.  I toyed with the idea of converting to 6.5 Creedmore, but I am going to hold off another year. I am comfortable shooting a pistol at 200 yards, maybe I can handle a .308 at 1000 with a little work.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, several SIG P226's, AR-15, Savage 308 bolt gun,

Offline stater61

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2017, 11:14:06 PM »
Joe L, I'm quite certain you can handle it just fine. Your 308 or a 6.5 will be great for you. The wind takes practice for sure but if you get your rifle and load criteria set up in JBM Ballistics it will help you tremendously, or a shooting app on your phone.

I used to go to Ruidoso for the motorcycle rally's, but haven't in several years. I should take a trip some day and hook up with you at the range, we can do some pistol and long range rifle shooting if you're ever interested. Out of curiosity what's the longest yardage you can shoot there?

Offline Joe L

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2017, 11:54:38 PM »
There is a berm and some steel at 500 meters, 547 yards.  Nice but small range.  Here is a video I shot there of me shooting the .308...

https://youtu.be/xvWuGnKXQK4?list=PL7GbOFIiTV0wCG-TBn-jpO8nGHVqw2edJ

Joe

CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, several SIG P226's, AR-15, Savage 308 bolt gun,

Offline stater61

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #8 on: February 28, 2017, 12:55:28 AM »
 Looks like you're getting there. :) Nice camera setup also.

Offline MikeLW

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #9 on: February 28, 2017, 11:04:37 AM »
Another great video Joe! Thanks guys for chatting here. I love it.

I'm starting to look at a scope upgrade. I'm looking at $300 range. Not sure if I'm ready for a $600 scope.


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Offline Joe L

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #10 on: February 28, 2017, 06:12:28 PM »
MikeLW--Sorry to crash your thread but I get pretty excited when I see people trying things that are out of their comfort zone, especially if it is a challenge that I would like to try for myself some time.  I have had very good results at 300 and 547 yards with a .308 and hope to get to shoot out to 1000 some time myself.

Can't help you with the scope.  I have a 3.5-21 Bushnell 34mm that I really like, but it cost more than the bare rifle.  And it is the only big scope I have any experience with. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, several SIG P226's, AR-15, Savage 308 bolt gun,

Offline MikeLW

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #11 on: February 28, 2017, 10:08:40 PM »
No apology needed. I like to hear y'all talking about it too.

« Last Edit: February 28, 2017, 10:13:15 PM by MikeLW »

Online coolbox

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Re: Need help getting 308 on paper at 1K
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 10:04:27 AM »
Sorry for chiming in late.
I have been busy a bit doing...guess what? Shooting at 1k!
I will post pictures of my setup soon.

Scope is more important than people think, be it glass, click accuracy, or elevation adjustment.

Most of the work lies between the shooter and the spotter. If you can shoot sub moa and half moa groups at 100, then with a non-subsonic 175smk, you can shoot at 1k, provided you have a good spotter, and sufficient elevation adjustment in your scope.
1mph wind change means about 10" deviation. So a 3 to 4mph wind gust will throw you out of paper.

Its usually the wind that makes us dance at 1k, and elevation is not that of an issue, specially if you have your dope dialed in. I use strekok, g7 bc, and have had exceptional results in elevation. AM almost always on paper 1st shot at 600, and 800. 1k, is a bit tough, but am getting there slowly (getting 1st shot on paper).



You do not need to read below, but reading might give you some insight.

I started mainly with Remington 700 5R Milspec(24"), with a Kahles 624i Scope, 20moa rail and 20moa mount, total 40moa. I would not have needed the additional 20moa of the mount (scope tould have had 16mils still, good for 1200 or so), but only had that rail and that mount at the time! This meant that the scope now had about 22mils of elevation available. And was a bit high mounted too. I always use factory loaded 175smk, that gives about 2640 fps in 75F.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=82073.msg602528#msg602528


I used Harris 9-13 non-swivel bipod, and a caldwell rear bag.

I shot 1000yards thrice, twice in matches, and once in practice. I will not like to share match results or pictures, as my spotter blew it for me. Bad wind calls lead to a wide horizontal spread and a few wash outs.

In the last practice session with this rifle, I shot a 9" group of 5 shots at 1k. It was low and left, as we could not see bullet holes, and was near sunset time. Sea level, standard pressure, 77 F. I could see in my scope that the splashes were behind the target, but could not be sure where the bullets were placed.

Anyways, back to point. You need to address 3 things first.

This is a sub 0.5MOA rifle with the loads I was using. I can get 0.3MOA occasionally, under 1moa all the time, and usually around 0.6 MOA, mostly due to my errors. I am using factory ammunition, and not reloading.

The scope is top notch, check out the results in PRS blogs, as k624i gets top marks for mechanical accuracy. Glass is quite good, not as good as Vortex Razor 2nd gen 4.5-27, or Schmidt & Bender PMII 5-25, but very good overall.

The ammo section needs a bit of work. I will need to reload for more & better consistency.

I have now upgraded to a custom rifle (FTR specs). I will post a review soon hopefully. It is almost cheating compared to the Remington 700 5R.
Life is too short to waste on a bad trigger pull