Author Topic: My Kadet experiment  (Read 2769 times)

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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2017, 09:44:30 AM »
Don't shoot competition.

However, my dad and his dad hunted with .22's for many, many years and I've seen a lot of them at Appleseeds.  Yes, I have some, too, but they are "old" ones for the most part.

My dad said they never had problems with duds when he was growing up and hunting squirrels/rabbits for the supper table.  Maybe one or two over 20 or 30 years, but not at all something to make him shy away from one brand or the other of .22 ammo.  Same for his dad.

Dad did believe, that when the ammo makers came out with the big jugs, tubs, buckets of bulk pack .22 that duds became more of an issue.  He firmly believed the ammo sold in those was 2nd rate vs. the 50 round boxes.  He got a lot of duds from those with his old Savage M29 pump and he could go back to the 50 round boxes and not have the duds.

I remember one Appleseed in particular, where a mother had brought her son and daughter to the 2 day shooting training event.  The mother had a family 10/22, the daughter had a borrowed 10/22 and the son had an old Remington single shot bolt action .22.  As the daughter and mother would shoot they'd have duds (don't remember the brand of ammo they were shooting) and they'd eject them and drop them on the tarp all three of them shared.  After the stage was over (targets scored) the son would pick up their duds and put them in a pile by his rifle.  The next stage he'd shoot their duds and the old single shot would pop one after another.

That brought back a memory of my grandpa's little Western Field single shot bolt action .22.  Dad would never let us mess with that rifle (I do not have a single memory of shooting it or hunting with it) because he said if you pulled the trigger on an empty chamber it would break the firing pin.  They'd had to replace it a couple times over the years when it had been loaned to a family member and brought back broken.

Didn't see this myself but my brother told me his buddy's Ruger Mk1 had to have the chamber edge repaired from firing pin damage while dry firing it.  He didn't mention firing pin damage so I can't say much about that.  It finally got to the point where it wouldn't fully chamber and had little spots raised up on either side of the spot the firing pin struck.

Now, to my last point.  Many of today's modern .22's have a firing pin stop feature that keeps the firing pin from striking the corner/edge of the chamber when dry fired.  That means the firing pin isn't capable of traveling as far forward as the older guns would allow.  So, get into the usual machining tolerances along with the usual QC and you get some variation (one way or the other) in just how far the firing pin travels forward and how "hard" it hits the rim of the .22 cartridge case.

So, whoever figured out the firing pin mod Painter points out is a pretty smart and practical person.  I'll have to try to remember it if I start shooting .22's again someday and have issues with duds.  Got a sweet little SIG 522 I've only had to the range once, about 5 years ago, or so.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2017, 01:38:55 PM »
So I went back in and took a few more strokes with the diamond file to the pin.

The result. My work is on the left side of the pin.



The cases in the center of the tray have the earlier mod strike, and the new one....



Sorry about the marginal cell phone pics. :-[

I think the strikes look deeper, but the extractor might have been holding the cases out slightly. Also, the build in pressure that causes the blowback adds to what appears on the case I'll know better when I see some fresh hits on new cases that extract normally.

I did not clean the gun. I got lazy. :P My experience is the light hits occur from mung on the chamber face. I'm at 210 rounds with a light hit on round 201. If I can get to 400+ rounds with no further light hits I'll call the exercise a success.

I'll keep you posted.
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Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2017, 09:00:31 PM »
Well...I'm a bit confused about what happened tonight.

The strikes are definitely deeper...a good thing. I fired 30 rounds warming up. All with the S&B with no issue. Then came the first slow fire target, again with the S&B, and no issues. The next target was timed fire. I've been using the CCI for timed and rapid because it's been more reliable. The very first round was a light hit, which went off on the second strike. I ran through the next 9 rounds, and 10 on the next rapid fire target without issue. So I'm now at 270 rounds with 2 light hits.

The next match all of the S&B went off without a hitch. Switched to CCI for timed fire and had a light hit on the second string. 290 rounds and 3 light strikes. Next was rapid again, and at this point things started deteriorating. I had a light hit on the first string, and I had 2 on the second, and had to call an alibi. There just wasn't time to cock the hammer twice in ten seconds and get all 5 rounds off. So that 297 rounds and 6 light hits.

Here's where it gets confusing, to me anyway. For my alibi string i loaded 5 of the S&B, and every single one went off first hit. I'm starting to wonder if I have a bad brick of CCI, or I've reached the end of reliability with the 13lb spring at about 250 rounds. Here's what I'm going to do.

I'm not going to clean it...Joe L will be proud. ;D  I'm going to shoot some different ammo besides the CCI next, along with the S&B, and see what happens. If I don't get any light hits for the next 100 rounds I'm going to believe it's an ammo factor. All the CCI I have was produced at least 2 years ago at the height of the shortage. Maybe it's good enough for a heavy spring, but not a light one.

I'll be back.
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2017, 10:39:21 PM »
Interested.  I'd like to get a .22 upper for my 75B that I can rely on.

Offline Joe L

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2017, 09:09:40 AM »
Painter--I quit using CCI SV in my Kadet when I had a few misfires.  Try some Norma Tac 22.  It is my standard ammo for the Kadet.  I've used the Norma Match as well but can't really tell any difference except the price.  I shot my one and only 100-10x timed fire outdoors with the Tac 22.  I'll have more misfires with the CCI than the Norma, in a Ruger 22/45 as well as with the Kadet.  I believe I made it through all the matches in 2016 without an alibi with the Kadet. 

My first thought is that the CCI misfires are not related to the firing pin modification. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #20 on: March 14, 2017, 09:28:21 AM »
Painter--I quit using CCI SV in my Kadet when I had a few misfires.  Try some Norma Tac 22.  It is my standard ammo for the Kadet.  I've used the Norma Match as well but can't really tell any difference except the price.  I shot my one and only 100-10x timed fire outdoors with the Tac 22.  I'll have more misfires with the CCI than the Norma, in a Ruger 22/45 as well as with the Kadet.  I believe I made it through all the matches in 2016 without an alibi with the Kadet. 

My first thought is that the CCI misfires are not related to the firing pin modification. 

Joe
I don't think the pin mod is the cause, but I do think spring weight is.

The CCI was rock solid with the 17lb spring up to about 400 rounds. The S&B is surplus from the 70's. It always goes bang, but occasionally a weak round won't push the slide back far enough to feed a round, which is why it was relegated to slow fire duty. The hammer always cocks.

I have some Geco rifle, which is the same as Tac-22, I have SK STD+ and SK Magazine which is the same as Wolf target, and some Eley Target as well as more of the S&B. I'll test it some more, and if necessary the CCI can be slow fire fodder, or maybe one of the guys at the club will buy it. Thing is I probably have 2 or 3K rounds of it. The waxy lube buildup is what I was blaming for the light hits. All the other ammo except the Eley uses a greasier lube.

We'll see.
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #21 on: March 14, 2017, 11:38:55 AM »
Lot's of people report CCI being more reliable than Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc.  They sure charge enough for them that they should be.

When you pulled the trigger on the dud round for the second time, did you hit the same spot on the rim a second time, or did you pull it out and turn the round so that the firing pin hit a different spot?

If same orientation that might mean light strike.

If different spot on the rim struck then it mine mean lack of priming compound at that first spot.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2017, 02:46:36 PM »
Lot's of people report CCI being more reliable than Remington, Winchester, Federal, etc.  They sure charge enough for them that they should be.

When you pulled the trigger on the dud round for the second time, did you hit the same spot on the rim a second time, or did you pull it out and turn the round so that the firing pin hit a different spot?

If same orientation that might mean light strike.

If different spot on the rim struck then it mine mean lack of priming compound at that first spot.
My experience these days has been getting what you pay for is optional from a manufacturers perspective, particularly when it comes to rimfire ammo. I've been using the CCI for about 5 years, and with a stock spring, or a 17lb spring, it's been good, but that's not the point of this exercise.

It was just a re-cocking of the hammer, and normally I'd agree with you about the light strike if all the S&B hadn't gone off on the first hit. That ammo is over 40 years old. Why did I not have a single light hit even after the CCI started malfunctioning? Not being an expert on the manufacture of rimfire ammo, but having watched a video of the method used at CCI, and marveling how 'manual' that process is, I'm wondering if it's possible to have some priming compound in the rim, but not thick enough to go off with a single hit from a 13lb spring?

I'm going to continue my testing. It may be folly, but it keeps me off the street. ;D
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #23 on: March 14, 2017, 03:10:47 PM »
And if you figure it out and fix it, then it wasn't folly.

If you learn from it, it's not folly (well, I guess that depends on whether or not it gets you into trouble." O0
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #24 on: March 14, 2017, 03:21:31 PM »
And if you figure it out and fix it, then it wasn't folly.

If you learn from it, it's not folly (well, I guess that depends on whether or not it gets you into trouble." O0
I never learned anything the easy way. ;)
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Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #25 on: March 20, 2017, 07:21:16 PM »
So I put 95 more rounds down range tonight. None of it was CCI, and I had no light strikes, and still haven't cleaned the gun. I shot S&B surplus from the 70's, Tac-22...had a partial box, and Geco rifle which is the same stuff as Tac-22.

That's a total of 392 rounds. I'll continue to shoot it for the next month without cleaning, and will report what happens. After the middle of April, league is over, and we move outside and shoot centerfire for fun.

I'm calling this experiment a success, at least with a 13lb spring. It isn't necessary if you use a 17lb, or heavier, spring. Even if it's a fluke, and didn't really accomplish much, it didn't hurt anything. If anyone has any questions about the mod let me know and I'll try to clarify.
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline Joe L

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #26 on: March 21, 2017, 12:02:45 PM »
Painter--thanks for your efforts.  I'll see if I can duplicate your results with the same modification.  I'm at a neurosurgeon's office right now seeing about my back problems.  Not sure when I'll get back to the Kadet.  May be mid April.  Unless I get the P-10C, then all bets are off for a month!

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline skin

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #27 on: March 21, 2017, 03:59:58 PM »
In the  old  precision shooting  mag, a man  named Bill Clafee  did a lot of experimental work with rimfire firing pins. Even one that hit all the way around the rim. I'll search and see what I come across.
« Last Edit: March 21, 2017, 04:11:23 PM by skin »

Offline Joe L

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2017, 07:31:06 AM »
In the  old  precision shooting  mag, a man  named Bill Clafee  did a lot of experimental work with rimfire firing pins. Even one that hit all the way around the rim. I'll search and see what I come across.
I've read Chafee's book, it is about 2" thick, all on rimfire rifles.  He's a hoot.  Would and did try almost everything related to rimfires.  Very interesting read, if you are in to almost too much information!
Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline painter

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Re: My Kadet experiment
« Reply #29 on: March 22, 2017, 08:09:07 AM »
Calfee is legendary. I don't have enough time, equipment, or motivation left to investigate every experiment he tried. ;D

I just did this so I don't have to switch springs. I can live with cleaning every 400, or so, rounds.

The CCI I have left can easily be sold, or relegated to slow fire duty. I'm leaning towards selling because the issue, as I see it, is the waxy lube build up on the feed ramp and chamber face, specifically when a chunk comes loose when a round is fed or the OBI is inserted, and gets in the way of allowing the case to sit tight to the chamber face.

The Tac-22 and Geco ammo has a more oily lube, as does SK, and I don't think those will present a problem.
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.