Author Topic: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?  (Read 469 times)

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« on: March 11, 2017, 12:36:04 AM »
So after reading about the CZ Custom Bushing and having the CGW bushing I think we are pretty lucky with our CZ's. But now I am curious... What sort of accuracy potential do other pistols have/or come guaranteed to have?  I'll take any and everything you all know of or have experienced.
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline SlvrDragon50

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #1 on: March 11, 2017, 01:42:01 AM »
Les Baer 1911s w/ 1.5" or 3" at 50 yards is probably the most accurate guarantee though I think a DW Valor is pretty darn close too (1.7" I think, just not guaranteed.)

Offline Boris_LA

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #2 on: March 11, 2017, 02:30:54 AM »
But now I am curious... What sort of accuracy potential do other pistols have/or come guaranteed to have?  I'll take any and everything you all know of or have experienced.
Purposely built target pistols often have sub MOA accuracy. Most of them are single shot 22s. Not great for rapid fire and for caring them in the holster.
Free pistol TOZ-35(M) for example rejected from the factory it 50m group is not smaller then 18mm. Thompson Center Contender (i have G2 22lr match version) is capable of 1-1.5" group at 100m and so are many silhouette pistols. Those pistols really think that they are rifles and many custom silhouette pistols are build from the rifle bolt actions put in the pistol stock. Many high-end target semiautomatic pistols are capable to almost the same precision.
For larger calibers service grade centerfire pistols 4-5MOA is outstanding performance, but 8-10 MOA (translates to 4-5" at 50 yards) is more real life expectation for good ones.


Offline Joe L

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #3 on: March 11, 2017, 07:39:35 AM »
I haven't tested many different pistols at 50-100 yards.  My best centerfire autos (75B plus CGW bushing, 97B"E", and P-09) I can demonstrate 3-6 moa every time I take them out.  The three factory Sig P-226s were more like Boris says, I typically could shoot 8-10 moa and the one Sig with a fitted Bar-Sto barrel that I fitted is closer to the CZ, but not quite there. 

To me, pistol accuracy guarantees are a marketing strategy based somewhat on statistics but also on human nature.  People that expect good results from their guaranteed accuracy pistol may actually shoot them better than they would one for which they had lower expectations.  I'm guilty of that myself.  I fully expected (and was right to) my 97B"E" to be a 3 moa pistol out of the box (with no guarantee), and it was.   I expected some improvement with the 10x bushing in the 75B slide and I got it.     

I'm no gunsmith.  But there is more to repeatability in a pistol than just the mechanical tolerances.  There is the lock up timing.  This is where the CZs plus the Atlanta Arms 115gr ammo seem to work better than the Sig, for example.  The Sig with the fitted barrel is tight, but it isn't quite as repeatable as the CZs.  I suppose the barrel starts dropping down sooner than the CZ, "unlocks" sooner?  I don't know.

I'm to the point where I'm not sure I could shoot a 2 moa capable pistol to less than 6 moa on average.  My 75B with CGW bushing may BE a 2 moa pistol and I just can't demonstrate it.  On the other hand, I can shoot a sloppy pistol to smaller groups than many people.  I don't have any trouble identifying a 10-20 moa pistol and declaring it to be too sloppy for me.   There aren't many of those out there, in my opinion, fortunately.  My example is my own 75B 9mm slide before the bushing swap. 

When I first started shooting pistols, I thought all pistols were sloppy and needed adjustable sights because they wouldn't hit in the same spot from day to day.  Eventually I learned that it was me, not the pistols.  After I learned to shoot, all pistols became more accurate and I no longer needed to adjust the sights every day.  Same with shooting at 50 and 100 yards from a rest.  There is a lot of technique that one must become good at before one can demonstrate how good a particular gun is.  I'm not there yet, but I'm further along the curve than most people.  On a normal day, I can certainly identify a poor pistol/ammo combination. 

Truly sloppy guns are easy to identify.  No one can shoot them well.  Truly good guns are harder to identify, as good shooters can always shoot them well, but less experienced shooters may not.   The less experienced shooters are quick to blame the pistol.  The more experienced shooters know better.   

Joe

CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, several SIG P226's, AR-15, Savage 308 bolt gun,

Offline Ballista

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2017, 09:46:01 AM »
Never shot one but Rock River 1911 A-1 Limited Match guarantees 1.5" at 50 yds with 185 grain federal gold metal match sierra semi wadcutter, RRA Tactical 1911 A-1 is 2.5" at 50 yds with same ammo.

Offline SlvrDragon50

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2017, 05:02:54 PM »
Never shot one but Rock River 1911 A-1 Limited Match guarantees 1.5" at 50 yds with 185 grain federal gold metal match sierra semi wadcutter, RRA Tactical 1911 A-1 is 2.5" at 50 yds with same ammo.
Oh wow, I had no clue Rock River Arms made those guarantees too.


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Offline Boris_LA

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2017, 06:30:57 PM »
...  Truly good guns are harder to identify, as good shooters can always shoot them well, but less experienced shooters may not.   The less experienced shooters are quick to blame the pistol.  The more experienced shooters know better.   

Joe
So true,
I sometimes let the indoor range guys to try my pistols and they are really impressed when they can hold 4-5" groups at 50'.
With the same pistols I am a bit disappointed then I can see individual shots at 50' instead of one large hole.

Offline The Conservative

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2017, 08:01:33 PM »
Far from an expert, but my step father was a firearms dealer which gave me to opportunity so shoot a lot of different handguns.  In my experiences, although a bit limited with CZs I would have to say HK and CZ are the most accurate non 1911 production guns with Walther and Sig getting honorable mentions.  The only ones I am aware of that have an accuracy guarantee are some of the higher end 1911s.
“The projectiles need to go where they will make the guy leak the quickest.  Your goal is to depressurize the circulatory system – let air in, let fluid out. Bonus points for any other disruptions, but don’t count on them.”   Pat Rogers

Online rhart

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2017, 08:35:27 PM »
I imagine the only way to know a pistol's true mechanical accuracy is to clamp it in a mechanical fixture to take the human element out of the equation and test various ammo to find what the gun likes.

Offline Beak Boater

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #9 on: March 12, 2017, 10:55:03 AM »
Even with the gun in a Ransom rest or something similar, you still have to take into consideration the Ammo. Some say that their hand loads are more accurate than commercial ammo. Had a guy at our local gun range hand me 5 rounds of 45acp that he had hand loaded. Try these he said, they are super accurate, I shot them, went into the group around the other 20 shots I had already taken, didn't seem any more or less accurate than the Freedom Munitions I was shooting.   
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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #10 on: March 12, 2017, 11:35:06 AM »
The barrel has to, after each shot, come back to the same spot in relation to the sights.  Not an issue for, say, a Ruger Mk1, but with any pistol with a barrel that moves around, it's an issue.

The ammo has to be both consistent and capable of stabilizing in the pistol's barrel.

The sights have to be made so that repeated "pointing" at the point of aim can be consistently done.

Some people can shoot a gun with a poor trigger pretty well but a nice trigger sure does make it easier.

The pistol needs to function perfectly, or as close to perfect as possible.  Hard to concentrate on good groups or finish the string in time if you're regularly clearing malfunctions.

And then there is the person shooting the pistol.  How they hold it (again, easier to shoot a pistol that fits your hands) and how well they can see/use the sights, and how well they can actually shoot (experience, skill, understanding, strength).

You know, I might even say the target can contribute to the how accurately someone can shoot a pistol.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Joe L

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Re: What's the accuracy potential of various pistols?
« Reply #11 on: March 12, 2017, 12:11:35 PM »
Someone else's 2 moa pistol might be a 6 moa pistol for me...until I get the Sugru and JB Weld on it.  Some folks don't like me to do that.

 :) :)

I don't have access to a Ransom Rest.  Probably a good thing.  I struggle enough with the variables I have already.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, several SIG P226's, AR-15, Savage 308 bolt gun,

 

anything