Author Topic: New pistol shooter training aid I am now using: MantisX  (Read 1654 times)

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Offline Joe L

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New pistol shooter training aid I am now using: MantisX
« on: March 13, 2017, 09:24:15 AM »
A fellow mentioned a MantisX pistol training device on the Sigforum so I looked them up and checked some Youtube videos and ordered one.  (Update--videos posted below now)

It is a small light rail mounted device that has two accelerometers in it to detect motion and a short term data logger.  It is paired to a phone via bluetooth.  When turned on, it starts storing motion data that is continuously replaced until a hammer drops, indicating the gun is fired.  Then it takes that motion data up to the time the gun goes off and sends it to the phone, displaying the last little bit of motion during the trigger pull. 

What I hope the device can show is "movement of the gun as the trigger is pulled", the #1 impediment to precision pistol shooting.  If it can record and feed back that information, one can train to minimize said movement and improve accuracy.   One should be able to see the effects of grip strength, trigger finger placement, Sugru here, Sugru there, JB-Weld on the trigger to increase trigger reach, breathing, that sort of thing.  Also 3# versus 5# trigger pulls. 

This is another one of those devices that is made possible by technology developed for other uses, in this case possiby image stabilization for digital cameras, applied to this very specific application.  I have no idea how well it works, other than seeing some positive Youtube videos, but I am hopeful that use of the device will help me quantify some of the things I have seen in my own shooting, more precisely than a dry fire laser or a close up video of the gun during live fire. 

The device is sensitive enough to use during dry fire (might need a 17# hammer spring?  just kidding).  It needs a rail or some way to mount it to the pistol, which will be a problem with some guns. 

As an engineer, I am fascinated with what people can come up with.  Maybe I can demonstrate some of the grip changes and finger placement changes I've come up with over the years with trial and error, shooting less ammo than I have to expend when the only quantification is a repair center target. 

I think the absolutely horrible range session results I had on Sunday trying to shoot the Kadet and P-09 may have something to do with my interest in this device.  Plus the soon to arrive (maybe) P-10C.  More later when I get the device and simmer down a little. 

Joe
« Last Edit: March 18, 2017, 07:40:17 AM by Joe L »
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline aguila9

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2017, 01:54:51 PM »
While I am fascinated by the development of tech training aids in the shooting world most of this stuff is not necessary.  Little coaching from a competent instructor and dry fire drills (done properly) can correct most sight alignment/trigger issues by a shooter.

That being said I better check this device out.

Sent from my SM-T560NU using Tapatalk


Offline SlvrDragon50

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2017, 02:51:55 PM »
Interesting, but $150 is asking way too much for an accelerometer.

Offline silentbob

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2017, 05:56:20 PM »
http://shootoffapp.com/

Software is free, you need a webcam and a laser cartridge.
Inexpenisve laser ammo shipping from the US:
https://www.itargetpro.com/collections/frontpage/products/pick-a-caliber

Or if you don't mind waiting, ships from China, you can find it for half that.
« Last Edit: March 14, 2017, 07:36:02 PM by silentbob »

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2017, 09:01:38 PM »
http://shootoffapp.com/

Software is free, you need a webcam and a laser cartridge.
Inexpenisve laser ammo shipping from the US:
https://www.itargetpro.com/collections/frontpage/products/pick-a-caliber

Or if you don't mind waiting, ships from China, you can find it for half that.
My wife bought me an itargetpro. The app is very clunky on android.

Offline silentbob

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2017, 10:08:27 PM »
http://shootoffapp.com/

Software is free, you need a webcam and a laser cartridge.
Inexpenisve laser ammo shipping from the US:
https://www.itargetpro.com/collections/frontpage/products/pick-a-caliber

Or if you don't mind waiting, ships from China, you can find it for half that.
My wife bought me an itargetpro. The app is very clunky on android.
Good to know about the app, but the link I posted was for the laser cartridge. They sell it for less than the others, I.e surestrike.
http://www.laser-ammo.com

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2017, 10:26:47 PM »
Excited to hear how it works and what you think of it!
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline Joe L

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #7 on: March 15, 2017, 06:05:58 AM »
Excited to hear how it works and what you think of it!

Thanks, the device will be here Thursday, so I'll get to try it over the weekend.  It may be May before the P-10C gets here, so I will probably practice with the P-09 and Kadet, maybe the 97.  I also have a new shooter lined up to try it with the P-07. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Online The Conservative

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #8 on: March 15, 2017, 06:28:48 PM »
Just watched a vid on this, looks really promising.  Should be a great tool for improving and finding problems when things start going south.  No more blaming gun, ammo, ect for really bad shots that felt like they broke on target.  Really interested in this, thanks for posting.
“The projectiles need to go where they will make the guy leak the quickest.  Your goal is to depressurize the circulatory system – let air in, let fluid out. Bonus points for any other disruptions, but don’t count on them.”   Pat Rogers

Offline Joe L

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #9 on: March 16, 2017, 06:37:22 PM »
Well, I'm glad there is some interest in the device.  I received it today and it worked perfectly out of the box.  It's small enough that I can put in on the top rail of the Kadet and still see the red dot.  The only gun I can't mount it on is the CZ-97B"E".  I've tried it so far in dry fire on the Kadet, an all stainless Sig P-226, and my favorite of all times, my first P-09.  I see the same variations I've been seeing lately at the shooting range, with the device reporting low 90s for what I would have called a wide shot, and 98 or better for a "perfect" shot.  I am going to make a dry fire video over the weekend, might also make a live fire one.  Will be fun to sync the target camera, shooter camera, and the MantisX feedback on the iPhone all at the same time! 

The device doesn't know where the gun is pointed when it went off, it just knows how it was moving 0.3 seconds before the hammer dropped.  I already suspect the wide shots will have a high correlation with the low MantisX scores.  The assumption is that the shooter was able to aim the gun exactly as iintended.  This isn't always the case in single hand, standiing, windy, bullseye practice!!   

This is fun.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2017, 06:52:33 PM »
Very interesting for bullseye practice. Excited to hear more.

Offline Joe L

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2017, 06:48:51 PM »
Here is a video I made this afternoon on my porch, dry fire.  Full disclosure--I'm having some back problems right now, so these results are less than spectacular.  After this little bit of experience with the device and seeing how sensitive it is, I'm thinking if I can average 97 for 10 shots, I will shooting a lot of 10 ring hits in a bullseye match. 

This video won't finish uploading until probably 8 pm CDT.  Here's the link...



Joe
« Last Edit: March 17, 2017, 08:38:14 PM by Joe L »
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline Joe L

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2017, 08:48:18 PM »
The bullseye practice video went well, so this time I decided to try the P-09 from a rest.  This went even better, confirming that my technique for bench shooting with a pistol is pretty good.  I had the  pistol too close to the iPhone and bumped the phone 3 times, setting off the MantisX just like a hammer drop.  You will have to ignore those in this video.  The device is very sensitive, as I didn't feel the hits myself. 

I think I could train myself to score 99.0+ with some time and effort.  That's what it takes to shoot good groups at 100-200 yards with a pistol. 

This video will finish uploading some time before 10 pm CDT.  I hope.



This is fun.  This is not easy, even in dry fire.

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2017, 11:00:51 PM »
This is so interesting to watch and see how it works. I'm curious how much improvement it would provide to new and medium grade shooters. Can't wait for the next video to post. And then to hear how it translates to you live fire.
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline Joe L

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Re: New pistol shooter training aid I am going to try
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2017, 05:23:37 AM »
SP--I've thought about the initial results some.  The one revelation I've had overnight is this...

The MantisX device measures ALL movement, in other words, shooter wobble PLUS trigger pull.  My average score from a rest was probably 98, standing two hand 96, and bullseye 91, on Friday, first time out, with some bad back spasms.  From a rest, I had the gun very steady before initiating the trigger pull.  It shows in the scores.  But the way the device is calibrated, it could differentiate between a perfect pull from a rest--I only had one--and an average pull from a rest, a 98.n.  I couldn't tell the difference looking through the red dot at the aim point.  One thing I know how to do is shoot from a rest.  My scores seem to confirm what I was already thinking, but there is still room for improvement!!  The device can differentiate between a day when I could shoot a 3" group from one where I can shoot a 6" group, at 100 yards with the P-09.  When I bought the MantisX, I had much lower expectations on the sensitivity side.  I think it is good enough to help me refine even a pretty good bench rest technique.

In bullseye practice, I know already when I have a day where I can't minimize the wobble before releasing the shot.  I will shoot low 90s timed fire 25 yards, pack up and go home.  On a good day, I will shoot 97 and have a 99 or 100 for at least one target out of 6.  I think I can at least quantify what kind of day to expect from dry fire before even heading to the range if I wanted, with the device.  Might save a trip and some ammo. 

I had about the worst bullseye practice ever last weekend (before getting the device) simply because I couldn't relax due to the back problems.  I'm still having some problems.  I am NOT having problems pulling the trigger smoothly.  It is the wobble, standing, single hand. 

Live fire results on Sunday will be interesting, that's for sure.  And I'm going to shoot the P-09 from a rest at 100 yards this coming week, also. 

Joe
CZ-75B 9mm and Kadet, 97B"E", two P-09's, P-07, P-10C