Author Topic: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?  (Read 702 times)

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Offline Naga

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Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« on: March 17, 2017, 08:26:40 PM »
I purchased a 1992 Pre-B CZ75 some time ago.  When I got it, I found that it was suffering from failures to extract.  The casings would get about halfway out of the chamber, then get stuck, while the slide would continue rearward and attempt to pick up the next round in the magazine.

I replaced the extractor, as well as the extractor spring with (I think it was) a Wolff extra power spring.  I noted that the extractor retaining pin fit in the slide was quite loose compared to what I was used to, to the point that it could be pushed out with little more than hand pressure on a punch.  Regardless, the failures to extract seemed to stop happening. 

Some time later, during another shooting session, the extractor retaining pin actually began to back out while firing.  It was suggested to me that I put Loctite on the pin and reinstall it, so I did that, using blue Loctite.  I believe the pistol worked fine for a while after that, but I do not recall for sure. 

Then, during yet another shooting session, I began to suffer from failures to extract again.  The casing gets about halfway out of the chamber, then gets stuck, while the slide continues rearward and attempts to pick up the next round in the magazine.  Thinking that perhaps there was buildup under the extractor causing the problem, I removed the extractor and cleaned it, the extractor cutout in the slide, and the extractor retaining pin.  I then reassembled it, staking and putting a slight bend in the extractor retaining pin to help it stay in place without the use of Loctite.

At yet another shooting session, I found that the problem had not been resolved.  I tried cleaning the chamber of any hard buildup by scraping it with a brass tool, but that did not seem to fix the problem.  Additionally, I experienced a few failures to eject, where the casing gets extracted, but then stuck in the ejection port, oriented in the same direction as the gun.

I field stripped the gun and placed a cartridge against the breech face, under the extractor, and shook it.  The cartridge stayed in place, so the extractor tension still seems good.  Offhand, I didn't notice any damage to the extractor, but given that I don't recall noticing any damage to the original extractor that I replaced to solve my earlier failure to extract problem, I'm not sure I am competent at identifying extractor damage.  Additionally, this problem does not seem to be magazine related, as I experienced it with multiple magazines. The malfunctions happen maybe once out of every twenty to thirty rounds fired.

The only thing that really comes to mind that might be causing this issue is damage to the (replacement) extractor due to the slide being dropped on a round that was manually loaded directly into the chamber, as I recall a friend of mine might have done when I let him try the gun.  Unfortunately, I don't shoot this gun enough to remember the specific history with great detail and accuracy. 

Before I go and buy another extractor, does anyone have any ideas as to what else I might check out?  Is dropping the slide on an already chambered round particularly damaging to the CZ75 extractor?
« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 09:31:25 PM by Naga »

Offline Jer60

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2017, 08:52:10 PM »
Dropping the slide on a live round in the chamber is a bad idea but I would be surprised if doing it only one time would damage the extractor. It could, but not very likely. Before we get too much further into your issues, would you mind commenting on the ammunition you were using? Also, shine a bright light into the chamber  and see if is it pitted or has any scrape marks in it?

Offline Naga

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2017, 09:11:14 PM »
Herter's (OEM by Sellier and Bellot) and Blazer brass were the two I tested last.  I saw no evidence of chamber damage when I looked at the range.  I am not able to check it again at the present time, though.

Offline Jer60

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2017, 10:02:27 PM »
I believe your problem is still in the extractor. The fact that the round did not tumble out from under the extractor doesn't necessarily mean you have a proper amount of tension on it.

I suggest you move this thread over to the "CZ Gunsmithing" forum and see what those fellows have to say about fitting a CZ extractor. It's at http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?board=40.0

Offline Jer60

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract
« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2017, 03:28:28 PM »
Here's a sticky that talks about fitting a CZ extractor. http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=14695.msg51204#msg51204

Offline 1SOW

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract
« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2017, 10:49:18 PM »
Before I go and buy another extractor, does anyone have any ideas as to what else I might check out?  Is dropping the slide on an already chambered round particularly damaging to the CZ75 extractor?

Yes it can damage the extractor.  Don't do it. 

Unless the slide pin hole is somehow enlarged,  the pin may not not be the stock size and is also loose in the extractor hole.
For the cost,  I'd get a new pin.

Offline Naga

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2017, 09:36:58 PM »
Hello again, everyone.  I replaced the extractor.  I also tried a new extractor pin to see if it would be a tighter fit, but it was not.  Therefore, I kept using the original pin that I bent slightly to keep it tight.  I took it to the range today and tried it out, and out of two full 16 round magazines, I had something like three or four failures to eject.  The malfunction looked like this (not my picture):



I found this image here:  http://undead-earth.com/wordpress/6875/2013/cz-75-range-day-2

Interestingly, Herter's ammo is what I tried in it today, much like the person who experienced that malfunction.

Regardless, does anyone have any ideas as to the cause?

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #7 on: April 20, 2017, 05:17:53 AM »
How far does it eject the empties when it works correctly?  Do they fall close to your feet?  Or go 6 to 10 feet away to the right and rear of where you stand?

If the slide is coming back with any force it out to be launching the empties a good distance.  All of my CZ 75's will send empties (yeah they bounce some on the concrete, too) go several feet away from me and the pistol.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Naga

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #8 on: April 20, 2017, 04:09:02 PM »
I would say it was throwing them about 5 feet to the right and 1 foot back.  Not particularly far compared to my CZ82 and CZ52, as I recall.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #9 on: April 20, 2017, 04:53:01 PM »
It almost sounds/looks like the slide isn't coming back with enough speed/force to wack the back of the empty against the ejector hard enough to send it flying out of the gun like it should.

Does the slide move to the rear freely with no recoil spring/guide in it? 

What does the ejector look like?  Can you get a picture of it?

Here's a picture of a CZ 75 sear cage (manual safety model) and you can see the size/shape of the ejector sticking up off the top and forward of the sear cage.  How does yours look compared to this one?  And, one more thing, is your sear cage nice and steady in the frame or can you move it around by pushing up/down or forward/backwards on it?   A small amount of movement may not be an issue but at some point/amount of movement it can cause other issues.

Well, the way the picture shows up the ejector is on the bottom right corner sticking down, but it's oriented, in the frame with that corner up and to the right.

Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline ThompsonCustom

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #10 on: April 20, 2017, 05:17:48 PM »
Quote
It almost sounds/looks like the slide isn't coming back with enough speed/force to wack the back of the empty against the ejector hard enough to send it flying out of the gun like it should.

I would agree, Looking at the picture from the OP the case looks like it never hit the ejector and than the slide tired to feed the empty case.

Broken ejector tip, case sticking to the chamber, something keeping the slide from moving or unlocking freely could cause this.
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Offline Naga

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #11 on: April 20, 2017, 06:32:02 PM »
I don't have the gun handy right now, but I did sort of check a few of these things.

-I compared the ejector side-by-side to a known good CZ75 owned by a friend of mine, and I didn't notice anything particularly anomalous with it.  He noticed that his looks "beefier," and that the marking from the brass of ejected cases looks different, but he admits that he pays close attention to detail, so whether or not this is significant, I dont know.  It does not appear obviously broken to me.

-The sear cage doesn't seem to move at all in the frame.

-I did not notice anything unusual about the movement of the slide.

Offline crankyoldlady

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #12 on: April 20, 2017, 06:43:44 PM »
When you installed the new extractor did you do so without adding any oil, grease, or lubrication to the extractor channel?  It is best for the extractor to run dry.

Offline ThompsonCustom

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #13 on: April 20, 2017, 06:44:44 PM »
What weight recoil spring do you have in the gun? To heavy spring with to light of load can short stroke things.
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Offline Naga

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Re: Pre-B Failure to Extract UPDATED: Failure to eject?
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2017, 12:05:18 AM »
I have an update.

As for the recoil spring, I don't remember specifically.  Going by memory, I believe it is a factory spring with a few rungs cut off of it to make it fit more easily, as I was directed to do by someone presumably more knowledgeable than me.

Now onto the update.  After two range trips, during which the pistol was tested with Prvi Partizan 9mm (115gr I think,) Federal HST 124gr, and some other type of 9mm a friend supplied (I want to say it was either Remington or American Eagle,) the gun worked perfectly.  When tested with Herter's (again, OEM by Sellier and Bellot) or Sellier and Bellot branded ammunition, regular malfunctions were encountered.  I do not believe the failures are magazine related.  It seems the gun just doesn't like Sellier and Bellot for some reason.