Author Topic: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!  (Read 884 times)

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Offline copemech

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Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« on: March 20, 2017, 01:34:33 AM »
Jeez, I should have done this a long time ago. This new Hornady L&L AP press is kinda sorta awesome if I do my part.

I have only done about 300 rounds  now, yet even with initial setup and trying to learn the system, production of larger numbers is now possible.

Somehow I did have three that came through with no primer, but this may well have been operator error. I am still coming to grips with the "feel" thing on the lever push to seat the primers. Yet, all the ones I shot today went bang.

I should state that I am nor running off anything special here, but what in my estimation is just good solid practice ammo using mixed brass, PD124 HP bullets and 4.2gr of HP38.

Variance in OAL seemed high to me at first, but this is not a single stage press.

Long story made short, I believe that even at my measured pace I can now probably cut my production time by 1/2-1/3 as compared to what was basically a single stage operation with a plate I could rotate once to process the next process, although I will likely still use the old one for rifle loads.

Fun Fun Fun, O0

Offline pewpew4life

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #1 on: March 20, 2017, 02:40:36 AM »
Yes, sir! It's crazy how much time a progressive press can save you. Congrats, and keep learning. Most of all be safe and ask questions if you're not sure.

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Offline Tok36

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #2 on: March 20, 2017, 03:02:00 AM »
Good to hear, progressive presses are fun. There is allot of knowledge around here about how to get the best out of them. I still have a long way to go to get my process perfected. Enjoy the new press!
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Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #3 on: March 20, 2017, 09:28:25 AM »
Jeez, I should have done this a long time ago. This new Hornady L&L AP press is kinda sorta awesome if I do my part.

I have only done about 300 rounds  now, yet even with initial setup and trying to learn the system, production of larger numbers is now possible.

Somehow I did have three that came through with no primer, but this may well have been operator error. I am still coming to grips with the "feel" thing on the lever push to seat the primers. Yet, all the ones I shot today went bang.

I should state that I am nor running off anything special here, but what in my estimation is just good solid practice ammo using mixed brass, PD124 HP bullets and 4.2gr of HP38.

Variance in OAL seemed high to me at first, but this is not a single stage press.

Long story made short, I believe that even at my measured pace I can now probably cut my production time by 1/2-1/3 as compared to what was basically a single stage operation with a plate I could rotate once to process the next process, although I will likely still use the old one for rifle loads.

Fun Fun Fun, O0
I still have some issues with priming feel, it could be much smoother. I feel safer priming as a separate operation, so I resize, prime and flare separately with the powder drop removed from the press. I know this is slower, but that's okay with me. When I first started with the LnL AP, I noticed a large variance in OAL as well. Keeping the shell plate loaded with cases until I crimp the last round has pretty much solved the issue.
 So far I've added an Inline Fab roller handle, shimmed the drive hub( https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/414607_How-to-tune-the-Hornady-Lock-N-Load-AP-progressive-press.html ), and adjusted shell plate detent balls. With a little bit of polishing to the primer parts, I think I'll be happy.

Offline SoCal

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #4 on: March 20, 2017, 02:09:16 PM »
If the shell plate bolt gets loose even a small amount you will have variances in OAL (and other possible issues as well).  I use an o-ring on the bolt and problem solved, I used a lock washer but found IMHO the o-ring works better.
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Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2017, 03:48:27 PM »
If the shell plate bolt gets loose even a small amount you will have variances in OAL (and other possible issues as well).  I use an o-ring on the bolt and problem solved, I used a lock washer but found IMHO the o-ring works better.
I'll try an o-ring, two types of lock washers and it still requires re-tightening. However, the only time it's been an issue is when using the resizing die.

Offline painter

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2017, 08:02:57 PM »
Is blue Loctite a no-no in that application?
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #7 on: March 20, 2017, 09:44:41 PM »
On an LnL, the case is supported by a subplate.  The shellplate doesn't support the case at all, so I'm not sure how a loose nut on a shellplate would influence OAL consistency.

Offline copemech

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #8 on: March 20, 2017, 11:54:19 PM »
On an LnL, the case is supported by a subplate.  The shellplate doesn't support the case at all, so I'm not sure how a loose nut on a shellplate would influence OAL consistency.

This is what I thought as well, however I may use a simple o-ring to help prevent loosening of the retaining bolt, which they tell you to "snug fit" only. Mine did seem to get loose on a regular basis.

When I say my OAL varience seemed high to me, I am talking somewhere in the range of .010-.012, or let us call it +- .006 and I know some of this is going to be the bullets. This variation does not panic me as I still maintain the average well within limits by .010 or so, as measured with MY guns.

Regardless if the subplate is the supporting member here, I can see where things may vary depending upon just how many are on the plate at any given time, as there has to be clearances for the mechanism to operate.

I may re check things when Hornady sends me my FREE 500 XTP 115gr. as they may be a bit more consistent  as compared to the PD. I am just wondering exactly what I will do with these bullets, as they could go  as a match grade target bullet or a defense role. Decisions, decisions?

Offline copemech

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #9 on: March 21, 2017, 12:13:24 AM »
Jeez, I should have done this a long time ago. This new Hornady L&L AP press is kinda sorta awesome if I do my part.

I have only done about 300 rounds  now, yet even with initial setup and trying to learn the system, production of larger numbers is now possible.

Somehow I did have three that came through with no primer, but this may well have been operator error. I am still coming to grips with the "feel" thing on the lever push to seat the primers. Yet, all the ones I shot today went bang.

I should state that I am nor running off anything special here, but what in my estimation is just good solid practice ammo using mixed brass, PD124 HP bullets and 4.2gr of HP38.

Variance in OAL seemed high to me at first, but this is not a single stage press.

Long story made short, I believe that even at my measured pace I can now probably cut my production time by 1/2-1/3 as compared to what was basically a single stage operation with a plate I could rotate once to process the next process, although I will likely still use the old one for rifle loads.

Fun Fun Fun, O0
I still have some issues with priming feel, it could be much smoother. I feel safer priming as a separate operation, so I resize, prime and flare separately with the powder drop removed from the press. I know this is slower, but that's okay with me. When I first started with the LnL AP, I noticed a large variance in OAL as well. Keeping the shell plate loaded with cases until I crimp the last round has pretty much solved the issue.
 So far I've added an Inline Fab roller handle, shimmed the drive hub( https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/414607_How-to-tune-the-Hornady-Lock-N-Load-AP-progressive-press.html ), and adjusted shell plate detent balls. With a little bit of polishing to the primer parts, I think I'll be happy.

Thank you Earl, as this link may be perfect for what I need, as it does mention primer seating depth, which I have NOT been impressed with and was wondering what to do about.

Offline Hutehund

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2017, 10:37:39 AM »
Keeping the shell plate tight is definitely key to the consistent operation of this press from and indexing standpoint.  I use a lock washer and check it every time I add primers (100 rounds).  That seems to work fine.

For me though, the single most important adjustment on this press is the timing adjustment.  It makes for much smoother and more consistent priming, less powder spill due to indexing jump, and more consistent OAL.  This video was priceless in helping me get that timing adjusted properly. 
 
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 11:53:06 AM »
Keeping the shell plate tight is definitely key to the consistent operation of this press from and indexing standpoint. 

Right.  And it can and should be properly adjusted.  It just has nothing to do with OAL conistency.  ;)

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2017, 06:29:30 PM »
Keeping the shell plate tight is definitely key to the consistent operation of this press from and indexing standpoint. 

Right.  And it can and should be properly adjusted.  It just has nothing to do with OAL conistency.  ;)
IDescribe, since you've commented on this twice, would you mind elaborating? Experience with my press indicates something different.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 07:22:15 PM by Earl Keese »

Offline copemech

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2017, 11:19:04 PM »
Earl, it seems to me that the case is actually supported by the sub-plate, and the shell plate just scoots them around. Now however, unbalanced loading of the plate, such as when only one or two are in rotation may cause more flex and a variance in seating depth.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Having a LARGE time with the new toy!
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2017, 02:12:52 AM »
Right.  And it can and should be properly adjusted.  It just has nothing to do with OAL conistency.  ;)

IDescribe, since you've commented on this twice, would you mind elaborating? Experience with my press indicates something different.

Normally, my assumption in cases like would be something like:

People new to the Lnl AP have initial problems with keeping the shellplate bolt adjusted properly, and people new to any press are going to have initial problems with OAL consistency, AND people just love to confuse correlation with causation, so...  ;)

BUT in your case, you already told us that your OAL inconsistency was the result of a not-completely-filled shellplate:

When I first started with the LnL AP, I noticed a large variance in OAL as well. Keeping the shell plate loaded with cases until I crimp the last round has pretty much solved the issue.

So we can move past that whole silly part of the conversation.  ;)



As to elaborating, I intially believed I provided enough detail the first time I commented, but here it is in more detail:

In order for some press component to affect OAL, it would have to support the case, support the dies, or affect the movement of the ram, and the shellplate does none of those on an LnL AP.  On an LnL AP, the cases are supported by a subplate, not the shellplate.  The only thing the shellplate does is slide the cases toward their next position on the subplate. The spring holds the cases against the shellplate, and between the two of them, they keep the cases in the correct spot on the subplate.  But, again, it is the subplate that supports and drives the cases into the dies.  In terms of driving cases into dies, the shellplate is just along for the ride.   

As to the shellplate bolt specifically, the drive hub and the bolt that attaches the shellplate to the drive hub are independent of the subplate.  The shellplate and drive hub sit in and pass through a hole in the subplate, but they are attached to the drive shaft inside the ram. The subplate, then, is attached to the ram independently by two screws underneath the subplate.  The shellplate and subplate are independent of one another.  You could remove the bolt that attaches the shellplate entirely, and the subplate, which again is what drives the cases into the dies, would be fixed to the ram just as rigidly.  That shellplate bolt does not affect it, and since the subplate is what's supporting the cases and driving them into the dies, that shellplate bolt doesn't affect how the cases are driven into the dies.

So with the OP needing assistance on OAL consistency, and people more than once mentioning the shellplate, shellplate bolt attachment,  and indexing, none of which affect OAL consistency, I felt compelled to mention more than once that the shellplate does not affect OAL consistency.

Copemech-OP, the most likely causes of your OAL inconsistency are:

  • Your arm, and the consistency with which you pull the lever.  HOWEVER, the Hornady LnL AP's use of an over-travel linkage mitigates this to some degree.
  • Platform stability.  I'm talking about the stability of the platform the press is mounted to.  You might feel like you're pulling steadily through each cycle, but if the table the press is mounted to is rocking or shifting in some way, the press is experiencing fluctuations in force from your arm during ram travel.
  • Mixed headstamps.  When the cases are driven into the sizing and seating dies, they're under a lot of force, and they flex, and when they are removed from the dies and from under that force, they spring back.  Different cases are made from slightly different alloys, slightly different metallurgical properties, with slightly different dimensions and different wall thicknesses, and so different cases will compress and spring back differently, possibly leading to slight cartridge OAL inconsistency.
  • Inconsistency in bullet length. IF you are using an anvil that seats off the ogive (you should be), you're going to get OAL inconsistency based on inconsistency in bullet length, most of which occurs in the nose (except for with FMJ).
  • And, finally, as has been determined previously, physics works differently for you than everyone else. ;)

If this were a Dillon 650, where the shellplate does support the cases, shellplate mounting would play a role, but not on the LnL AP.

My recommendation is to use an anvil that seats off the ogive and not worry about it.  ;)   Missing primers are a different story.  Let us know how that goes.




 

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