Author Topic: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?  (Read 1847 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MeatAxe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2017, 04:21:07 AM »
Yeah, screw these obsolete, antiquated projectile weapons -- I want a ray gun!!! :o

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17382
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #16 on: March 30, 2017, 06:12:31 AM »
"Plasmas rifle in the 40 Megawatt range."
"Hey, buddy, just what you see on the shelf."
 8)
More likely rail guns or coil guns will come to fruition faster, as we already have coil guns hobbyists make that work quite well, but you never know. Juts as long as they don't look like Klingon disruptors - dumb looking handgun.


Hmm, a CZ rail rifle, that could be fun.  ;D

Offline mig1nc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #17 on: March 30, 2017, 08:01:24 PM »
Weight reduction on the CT is actually less than you might think.  210 round 5.56 loadout brass vs CT you're looking at a 1/3rd, ~4 lb savings...  About the same for 7.62N. 
But 6.5 CT ammo weighs ~1/3rd more than brass 5.56...  And to compensate for the reduced reliability of CT loads, a big driver of the theory of use is that infantry weapons would have an effective engagement range of 1200m, which seems misguided to say the least -- to defeat an enemy w/ superior technology for any serious engagement (other than potshots at range as is seen in Afghanistan), one is always best to engage the superior tech enemy at the closest range possible in order to mitigate many of those tech advantages.

Because of the weight noted above, I do believe we're far more likely to see a 6mm and 7mm dual use system (if powers that be are smart and go for incremental change) than any of the 5mm or smaller PDW rounds, or anything larger than 7mm for standard issue...  .300 win mag can and should stay, and .338 lapua is already replacing .50 bmg in most uses as is good and proper.  But neither of these harder hitting rounds are suitable for building into a general issue weapon...

My belief is that we're more likely to see energy weapons before CT comes to reliable fruition, but I've been wrong before...
CT ammo isn't optimized yet. Right now is just a variation of the .264USA stuffed into the 7.62CT body. They expect to get the weight down further. Likewise the weapon as well.

Imagine a 6.5 low drag projectile launched from a tracking point carbine... I think that's where we'll eventually be in a decade or two. Maybe sooner depending on the economy and need.

Remember even amateurs are getting hits at ridiculous ranges with Tracking Point rifles at today's technology level.


Sent from my SM-N920V using Tapatalk

Offline MeatAxe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #18 on: March 30, 2017, 09:54:48 PM »
Not sure how we got from 6.5 Grendel to plastic ammo, rail guns, beam weapons, etc. For years "the next big thing" was going to be H&K's "caseless" ammunition "to revolutionize" firearms, which never has materialized. Hell, the US / NATO has been stuck in that turkey of a DI M16 / 5.56 platform for over 50 years, so there's a pretty much insurmountable level of inertia in the gov't to move forward from what's (barely) good enough, even to something that already exists within easy reach that's much better.

Dealing with existing weapons and ammunition of today's world, for the average citizen who wants a versatile SHTF / do anything, semi-auto medium-power rifle caliber, 6.5 Grendel is a big step up from 5.56 and 7.62x39, regardless of if you're using a AR, AK or whatever. And it can be had for cheap, so you can easily afford to stack deep, which is a real advantage over others that have been mentioned, some of which are basically "wildcat" cartridges by comparison.

I've gone about as far as I want to go with the AR DI "platform." They keep putting bandaids on ARs  and 5.56 round, but for my purposes, 7.62x39 is already much better. So 6.5G would be an affordable step beyond that.

What I've seen of the Bren 805 (and CZs in general) I like. There's a tremendous amount of interest in the 6.5G, especially from those of us who don't have the time or inclination to reload, but want improved performance over the status quo. So if they already have it in 5.56 and they're going to offer it in 7.62x39, a Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel seems like a relatively easy, natural progression at this point in time. It makes perfect sense to me -- I would definitely buy one.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2017, 11:52:52 PM by MeatAxe »

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3156
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #19 on: March 31, 2017, 01:06:12 AM »
CT ammo isn't optimized yet. Right now is just a variation of the .264USA stuffed into the 7.62CT body. They expect to get the weight down further. Likewise the weapon as well.

Imagine a 6.5 low drag projectile launched from a tracking point carbine... I think that's where we'll eventually be in a decade or two. Maybe sooner depending on the economy and need.

Remember even amateurs are getting hits at ridiculous ranges with Tracking Point rifles at today's technology level.

Caseless ammo has been in development since WW2.  Cased telescopic has been in modern development since the 1960s w/ the H+K G11.  And millions of US R&D dollars have already been spent.  How much more time and money does it need to be "optimized"?

The thing about combat is that targets under fire are exposed for mere seconds or less regardless of range.  And fire is 2 ways and the general confusion and complexity.  Tracking point type setups probably do have use w/ sniper type units or even DMR soldiers w/in a uniit, but as a general issue weapon reliance on technology to that degree is very dangerous both due to limitations and what happens when that tech fails...

What advantage does 6.5 have over a 6mm cartridge, especially a 6mm and 7mm dual system of 5.56 and 7.62 we have today?

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17382
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #20 on: March 31, 2017, 02:45:06 AM »
I remember the G11, dustbin of history now.
.223 isn't BAD, but I like the heavier slug of the 7.62x39mm, which is what attracted me to 6.5 Grendel, a mix of both with longer range potential and more oomph down range. My 7.62x39mm loads can't quite step out of that carbine barrel quick enough for anything past 300-400 yards...which is OK considering I'm shooting iron sights and can't SEE anything farther than that!
MeatAxe, sometimes discussions take some wild left turns, but we do try to keep it on point a little better most times. I agree that I would love a BREN in 6.5 Grendel, even a BREN 2... :o 8)

Offline MeatAxe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2017, 04:07:55 AM »
CT ammo isn't optimized yet. Right now is just a variation of the .264USA stuffed into the 7.62CT body. They expect to get the weight down further. Likewise the weapon as well.

Imagine a 6.5 low drag projectile launched from a tracking point carbine... I think that's where we'll eventually be in a decade or two. Maybe sooner depending on the economy and need.

Remember even amateurs are getting hits at ridiculous ranges with Tracking Point rifles at today's technology level.

Caseless ammo has been in development since WW2.  Cased telescopic has been in modern development since the 1960s w/ the H+K G11.  And millions of US R&D dollars have already been spent.  How much more time and money does it need to be "optimized"?

The thing about combat is that targets under fire are exposed for mere seconds or less regardless of range.  And fire is 2 ways and the general confusion and complexity.  Tracking point type setups probably do have use w/ sniper type units or even DMR soldiers w/in a uniit, but as a general issue weapon reliance on technology to that degree is very dangerous both due to limitations and what happens when that tech fails...

What advantage does 6.5 have over a 6mm cartridge, especially a 6mm and 7mm dual system of 5.56 and 7.62 we have today?


The advantage is that factory-made 6.5 Grendel is in mass production right now. And affordable. Those other chambering may be superior ballistically to 6.5G, but you can't buy them at your local Academy or gun shop or order them by the caseload on line, not for 23 cents a round, anyway.

The only disadvantage at the moment is magazines for the AKs in 6.5G. Only 10-rd Molot mags are available and adaptors for AR mags are basically unobtainable. I'm hoping I can modify some Galil 5.56 mags to do the job until factory hi-cap mags are available. Actually, 10-rd 7.62x39 mags will work with a bullet guide, but 10 rounds seems to be the capacity limit for 6.5G in any x39 "banana clip."

Since the Bren 805 in 5.56 already takes standard AR mags, it shouldn't be any problem to chamber the Bren in 6.5G, using existing 6.5G AR mags to feed it.

« Last Edit: March 31, 2017, 04:18:59 AM by MeatAxe »

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17382
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #22 on: March 31, 2017, 07:08:08 AM »
Who makes affordable 6.5 Grendel AR mags?

Offline Boogalou

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 924
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #23 on: March 31, 2017, 09:49:19 AM »
Who makes affordable 6.5 Grendel AR mags?

I have no experience with them in 6.5 grendel, but C product mags work fine in my 7.62x39 ar15.

http://www.shop.northriverllc.com/65-Grendel-Magazines_c14.htm

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3156
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #24 on: March 31, 2017, 02:01:06 PM »
"Plasmas rifle in the 40 Megawatt range."
"Hey, buddy, just what you see on the shelf."
 8)
More likely rail guns or coil guns will come to fruition faster, as we already have coil guns hobbyists make that work quite well, but you never know. Juts as long as they don't look like Klingon disruptors - dumb looking handgun.


Hmm, a CZ rail rifle, that could be fun.  ;D

Rail guns and such (as are used on ships and other vehicles) are interesting only insofar as they allow one to fire huge projectiles (larger than what are feasible if using barreled guns and explosive propellant instead) are effectively limitless energy resources of existing powerplants and accordingly allow an increase in # of projectiles for same weight.  I don't see how those advantages continue to small arms.  Logistically, batteries will always be harder to supply than a self contained unit, which a cartridge is.  I see an equivalency to MREs (brass cased ammo) and giving troops a lamb, some fuel, a pack of matches, and a weber grill (coil and rail guns)...  End of day, a projectile weapon is a projectile weapon, it's just how you package it... 

Laser weapons are already real and are more efficient than the alternatives.  Primarily focused on defensive uses right now, but they are already portable down to the vehicle level.   And energy burst weapons are already being portable at the trooper level for drone counter-measures.

Offline RSR

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3156
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #25 on: March 31, 2017, 02:14:59 PM »
I remember the G11, dustbin of history now.
.223 isn't BAD, but I like the heavier slug of the 7.62x39mm, which is what attracted me to 6.5 Grendel, a mix of both with longer range potential and more oomph down range. My 7.62x39mm loads can't quite step out of that carbine barrel quick enough for anything past 300-400 yards...which is OK considering I'm shooting iron sights and can't SEE anything farther than that!
MeatAxe, sometimes discussions take some wild left turns, but we do try to keep it on point a little better most times. I agree that I would love a BREN in 6.5 Grendel, even a BREN 2... :o 8)

Bringing it back to the Czechs, Sellier and Bellot was supposedly considering producing 7x46mm UIAC (Universal Intermediate Assault Cartridge) a couple years back.  I see the 7mm as vastly superior to .308 in all infantry use cases; and recall that due to weapon development pauses, etc, many special units have been using short(er) barreled .308 ARs/SCARs and have also in fact developed a .308 cartridge w/ faster powder and lighter projectile (130 gr range IIRC) as a stopgap, forget the exact name of the cartride offhand, but it's a stopgap suboptimal solution where something in 7mm would be vastly superior. 

However, 7mm is also not an ideal replacement for 5.56...  Many suggest a pdw type cartridge to replace 5.56 but I think that is extremely short-sighted.  I think a 6mm would allow the necessary ballistic, energy, terminal, etc, performance to ~800m while also keeping cartridge weight and bulk in line w/ 5.56 (recall, the SAW ammo load is typically spread among other squad members in addition to their individual standard battle loads. 

Perhaps most importantly, reducing ammo loads which would necessarily be required w/ any significantly heavier cartridge than 5.56 will also necessitate a substantial revision of tactics where currently high volume of fire is critical for fire superiority and less ammo on a soldier would necessitate either modification of tactics or additional soldiers moved from combat to resupply roles...

EDIT: This is the short barreled .308 ammo: http://palmettostatearmory.com/mk319-mod-0-7-62mm.html
Quote
FEDERAL 7.62X51MM MK319 MOD 0 130GR SOST AMMUNITION 20RDS
The open-tipped rounds until now have been available only to Special Operations Command troops. The first 200,000 7.62 Special Operations Science and Technology rounds are already downrange with Marine Expeditionary Brigade-Afghanistan. SOCOM developed the new rounds for use with the Special Operations Force Combat Assault Rifle, or SCAR, which needed a more accurate bullet because its short barrel, at 13.8 inches, is less than an inch shorter than the M4 carbine’s. Using an open-tip match round design common with some sniper ammunition, SOST rounds are designed to be “barrier blind,” meaning they stay on target better than existing M855 rounds after penetrating windshields, car doors and other objects.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2017, 12:22:59 AM by RSR »

Offline MeatAxe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #26 on: March 31, 2017, 07:48:50 PM »
Who makes affordable 6.5 Grendel AR mags?


In addition to C-Products, ASC and E-Lander (thru Alexander Arms) make 6.5G AR mags. Saw another, "AR Stoner" new to me. So there are a few out there and at affordable prices.

ETA: Looks like ASC also sells 6.5G spring, follower and floor plate kits pretty cheap, so might be able to convert existing 5.56 mags fairly easily.

http://www.ammosc.com/25-round-6-5-spring-kit/
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 08:34:09 PM by MeatAxe »

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17382
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #27 on: April 01, 2017, 04:26:00 AM »
AR Stoner is all I saw, at MidwayUSA, knew there had to be others.  8)

Offline mig1nc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2017, 06:57:14 PM »
This came up today, somewhat interesting in that it's about a 6.5mm cartridge.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/04/jim-schatz-a-path-to-overmatch-next-generation-individual-weapon-system/


Offline MeatAxe

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 462
Re: Bren 805-6 in 6.5 Grendel?
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2017, 08:26:21 PM »
This came up today, somewhat interesting in that it's about a 6.5mm cartridge.

http://soldiersystems.net/2017/04/04/jim-schatz-a-path-to-overmatch-next-generation-individual-weapon-system/


Yeah, somewhere between 6 an 7 mm seems to be the ballistic sweet spot for an infantry (and all around SHTF) rifle. For some reason, they advocate for an entirely new and more powerful cartridge (necessitating totally new magazines and associated gear / logistics and won't fit in existing serviceable  AR lowers) even though the 6.8 SPC and 6.5 Grendel have been in mass production and extensive development for years (and seems to meet their performance parameters and work with existing lowers). This seems typical of military procurement -- they always seem to want their own creation, even if it's just a spin off of available commercial cartridges, which is going to cost billions more taxpayer dollars.

Unfortunately, the massive inertia of the procurement gravy train is virtually insurmountable, especially when the brass and politicians rig tests and result to maintain the status quo of  inferior performance (over half a century saddled with the AR / 5.56 "platform").

Fortunately, US civilians aren't encumbered by such BS, at least in the Free States. I hope CZ (at least) is listening. A 7.62x39 Bren seems to be in the pipeline, hopefully a 6.5 Grendel won't be far behind. Seems like it would be an easy slam dunk.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2017, 08:45:04 PM by MeatAxe »

 

anything