Author Topic: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:  (Read 2172 times)

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Offline PPS1980

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2017, 09:37:34 AM »
All this talk about skills prior to taking a concealed weapons class. I might suggest that this is a class and not a test. This is the opportunity to teach such skills as

safe handling
safe use
range etiquette
marksmanship
Concealed weapon legalities.
etc.

The class might have to be a little longer to raise proficiency for some. This is the opportunity to teach not shun.


On a completely side note: the 'infringement' argument is really getting tired. We all support the ideology. Some of us also support practical application and personal safety.

I appreciate our thoughts but don't think you can speak for everyone.  I see folks that own and carry that have the creeping infringement attitude all the time.  '2A is absolute, but.....'
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Offline Beak Boater

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2017, 12:01:44 PM »
All this talk about skills prior to taking a concealed weapons class. I might suggest that this is a class and not a test. This is the opportunity to teach such skills as

safe handling
safe use
range etiquette
marksmanship
Concealed weapon legalities.
etc.

The class might have to be a little longer to raise proficiency for some. This is the opportunity to teach not shun.


On a completely side note: the 'infringement' argument is really getting tired. We all support the ideology. Some of us also support practical application and personal safety.
Probably 70% of the class was basic handgun safety. The other 30% dealt with concealed carry. I submit to you that it is a test, at least the live fire portion. You have to demonstrate the ability to handle, shoot and unload the weapon safely, or you will not get your certificate of training that is required to apply for your CCW. The instructor has disqualified individuals for gross negligence or unsafe actions. When asked about what happens after that, he works with them individually to get them up to an acceptable level of handgun safety before issuing the certificate.
I am not advocating any creeping infringement, or eroding or our 2A rights. What I am saying is I think that a concealed carry permit holder has an obligation to train, and practice to become proficient and safe handling their weapon.  I know this isn't the law, its just my opinion.
Only 2 defining forces have ever offered to die for you....Jesus Christ and the American Soldier. One died for your soul, the other for your freedom.

Offline PPS1980

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2017, 05:49:45 PM »
All this talk about skills prior to taking a concealed weapons class. I might suggest that this is a class and not a test. This is the opportunity to teach such skills as

safe handling
safe use
range etiquette
marksmanship
Concealed weapon legalities.
etc.

The class might have to be a little longer to raise proficiency for some. This is the opportunity to teach not shun.


On a completely side note: the 'infringement' argument is really getting tired. We all support the ideology. Some of us also support practical application and personal safety.
Probably 70% of the class was basic handgun safety. The other 30% dealt with concealed carry. I submit to you that it is a test, at least the live fire portion. You have to demonstrate the ability to handle, shoot and unload the weapon safely, or you will not get your certificate of training that is required to apply for your CCW. The instructor has disqualified individuals for gross negligence or unsafe actions. When asked about what happens after that, he works with them individually to get them up to an acceptable level of handgun safety before issuing the certificate.
I am not advocating any creeping infringement, or eroding or our 2A rights. What I am saying is I think that a concealed carry permit holder has an obligation to train, and practice to become proficient and safe handling their weapon.  I know this isn't the law, its just my opinion.

I do not disagree with you that carrying a weapon is a responsibility and carries with it obligations.  Unfortunately, the cases you cite are government restrictions on our 2A right, which I do not agree with.  Do I want those folks to learn how to be safe- absolutely.  Is it the right of any government body in the US to mandate such - nope. 
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Offline frgood

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #33 on: April 08, 2017, 07:05:25 AM »
All this talk about skills prior to taking a concealed weapons class. I might suggest that this is a class and not a test. This is the opportunity to teach such skills as
Probably 70% of the class was basic handgun safety. The other 30% dealt with concealed carry. I submit to you that it is a test, at least the live fire portion. You have to demonstrate the ability to handle, shoot and unload the weapon safely, or you will not get your certificate of training that is required to apply for your CCW. The instructor has disqualified individuals for gross negligence or unsafe actions. When asked about what happens after that, he works with them individually to get them up to an acceptable level of handgun safety before issuing the certificate.
I am not advocating any creeping infringement, or eroding or our 2A rights. What I am saying is I think that a concealed carry permit holder has an obligation to train, and practice to become proficient and safe handling their weapon.  I know this isn't the law, its just my opinion.

I think that is a fair position to take. To add to that, perhaps, there is a market for both. I do take exception to the others in this forum who misread my post or are merely seeking a chance to scream their swan song.  Training and education is the responsibility of every adult (currently classed as those over the age of 18). What are we to do with those that are irresponsible?

The question that springs to mind is "Should the CCW permitting process be a test of skill, of need?"  I would refer to the original point of a CCW permit of which I do not have an answer. 
It all sounded a lot funnier in my head.

Offline Inusuit

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #34 on: April 08, 2017, 02:55:24 PM »
I have a friend who works at the local newspaper.  He was upset when my state went to Constitutional carry.  Said people should have training and a qualification requirement.  I asked him what training, screening, and pre-qualification someone should be required to have in order to exercise their First Amendment rights?  His reply is unprintable.  But he got the point.,

Offline PPS1980

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2017, 03:54:36 PM »
All this talk about skills prior to taking a concealed weapons class. I might suggest that this is a class and not a test. This is the opportunity to teach such skills as
Probably 70% of the class was basic handgun safety. The other 30% dealt with concealed carry. I submit to you that it is a test, at least the live fire portion. You have to demonstrate the ability to handle, shoot and unload the weapon safely, or you will not get your certificate of training that is required to apply for your CCW. The instructor has disqualified individuals for gross negligence or unsafe actions. When asked about what happens after that, he works with them individually to get them up to an acceptable level of handgun safety before issuing the certificate.
I am not advocating any creeping infringement, or eroding or our 2A rights. What I am saying is I think that a concealed carry permit holder has an obligation to train, and practice to become proficient and safe handling their weapon.  I know this isn't the law, its just my opinion.

I think that is a fair position to take. To add to that, perhaps, there is a market for both. I do take exception to the others in this forum who misread my post or are merely seeking a chance to scream their swan song.  Training and education is the responsibility of every adult (currently classed as those over the age of 18). What are we to do with those that are irresponsible?

The question that springs to mind is "Should the CCW permitting process be a test of skill, of need?"  I would refer to the original point of a CCW permit of which I do not have an answer.

I have explained my objections, did not misread anything, and do not have a "swan song'. But thanks for participating.
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Offline frgood

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2017, 04:26:23 PM »
... I do take exception to the others in this forum who misread my post or are merely seeking a chance to scream their swan song.

I have explained my objections, did not misread anything, and do not have a "swan song'. But thanks for participating.

It all sounded a lot funnier in my head.

Offline Swamp ash

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #37 on: April 18, 2017, 10:05:05 AM »
The magic plastic card arrived last Friday in only 2.5 weeks since I applied.
The rapidity of the background check, etc. demonstrates how truly boring I really am ;D

Now, the fun part: a few cc accessories 8)

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Offline Sicamosley

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Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #38 on: April 19, 2017, 03:58:51 AM »
All this talk about skills prior to taking a concealed weapons class. I might suggest that this is a class and not a test. This is the opportunity to teach such skills as

safe handling
safe use
range etiquette
marksmanship
Concealed weapon legalities.
etc.

The class might have to be a little longer to raise proficiency for some. This is the opportunity to teach not shun.


On a completely side note: the 'infringement' argument is really getting tired. We all support the ideology. Some of us also support practical application and personal safety.
Probably 70% of the class was basic handgun safety. The other 30% dealt with concealed carry. I submit to you that it is a test, at least the live fire portion. You have to demonstrate the ability to handle, shoot and unload the weapon safely, or you will not get your certificate of training that is required to apply for your CCW. The instructor has disqualified individuals for gross negligence or unsafe actions. When asked about what happens after that, he works with them individually to get them up to an acceptable level of handgun safety before issuing the certificate.
I am not advocating any creeping infringement, or eroding or our 2A rights. What I am saying is I think that a concealed carry permit holder has an obligation to train, and practice to become proficient and safe handling their weapon.  I know this isn't the law, its just my opinion.

Who gets to decide what is proficient?  Who gets to decide what safe handling is?

In CA safe handling is keeping your hand gun and ammo in separate locked containers at all times.

What if someone in charge decided proficient meant shooting at a level equivalent to Jerry Miculek?  If you can't shoot every bit as well as he does, you are not considered proficient, and don't get to own let alone, carry a gun.

NOPE. 

Are there idiots out there who are a danger in possession of a gun?  Yup!  It is the cost of doing business.

Just as there are idiots out there who are a danger in possession of a car.

You can't cure stupid.  But don't punish me because some yahoo is too dumb to function.

You open your door in the morning, and no matter what laws are in place, you take your life into your own hands, just by going out into the world.  It has always been that way, it will always be that way.  Nothing can change it.


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« Last Edit: April 19, 2017, 04:00:22 AM by Sicamosley »

Offline PPS1980

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #39 on: April 19, 2017, 09:49:51 AM »
Who gets to decide what is proficient?  Who gets to decide what safe handling is?

In CA safe handling is keeping your hand gun and ammo in separate locked containers at all times.

What if someone in charge decided proficient meant shooting at a level equivalent to Jerry Miculek?  If you can't shoot every bit as well as he does, you are not considered proficient, and don't get to own let alone, carry a gun.

NOPE. 

Are there idiots out there who are a danger in possession of a gun?  Yup!  It is the cost of doing business.

Just as there are idiots out there who are a danger in possession of a car.

You can't cure stupid.  But don't punish me because some yahoo is too dumb to function.

You open your door in the morning, and no matter what laws are in place, you take your life into your own hands, just by going out into the world.  It has always been that way, it will always be that way.  Nothing can change it.


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Well said!
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Walther PPS - Classic & P99AS - both with paddles and both in 9mm
Browning Hi Power, SAR K2-45, Ruger LCP, S&W 442, Ruger MkII, & FEG PA-63
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Offline Swamp ash

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #40 on: April 20, 2017, 12:15:29 PM »

Who gets to decide what is proficient?  Who gets to decide what safe handling is?

In CA safe handling is keeping your hand gun and ammo in separate locked containers at all times.

What if someone in charge decided proficient meant shooting at a level equivalent to Jerry Miculek?  If you can't shoot every bit as well as he does, you are not considered proficient, and don't get to own let alone, carry a gun.

NOPE. 

Are there idiots out there who are a danger in possession of a gun?  Yup!  It is the cost of doing business.

Just as there are idiots out there who are a danger in possession of a car.

You can't cure stupid.  But don't punish me because some yahoo is too dumb to function.

You open your door in the morning, and no matter what laws are in place, you take your life into your own hands, just by going out into the world.  It has always been that way, it will always be that way.  Nothing can change it.


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Safe handling techniques are pretty basic, IMHO and everyone should abide by simple rules. These have long been regulated by states regarding hunter safety courses, permit classes, etc.  I think the burden should be on ensuring quality firearms instructors are properly trained/indoctrinated.

I think it is quite remiss in my class the instructor swept the room with every weapon he touched  and allowed students to pass weapons around pointing at other people.  These are simple concepts. 

CAn't really control all the suspect stuff my instructor said, but maybe improved requirements for instructors is necessary.  I'd really like to see some former Marine gunnery sergeant  help folks get acquainted with their dainty little weapons ;D.  Therefore I see some room for basic firearm-handling standards, but I am not certain if proficiency is something we really need to test.  Perhaps minimum range time with one's weapon is sufficient.
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Offline PPS1980

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #41 on: April 20, 2017, 03:33:09 PM »
Safe handling techniques are pretty basic, IMHO and everyone should abide by simple rules. These have long been regulated by states regarding hunter safety courses, permit classes, etc.  I think the burden should be on ensuring quality firearms instructors are properly trained/indoctrinated.

I think it is quite remiss in my class the instructor swept the room with every weapon he touched  and allowed students to pass weapons around pointing at other people.  These are simple concepts. 

CAn't really control all the suspect stuff my instructor said, but maybe improved requirements for instructors is necessary.  I'd really like to see some former Marine gunnery sergeant  help folks get acquainted with their dainty little weapons ;D.  Therefore I see some room for basic firearm-handling standards, but I am not certain if proficiency is something we really need to test.  Perhaps minimum range time with one's weapon is sufficient.

Again, aspirations and ideals are great.  But requiring people to pass what YOU believe they ought to pass, or put in the time YOU believe they ought to put in, or take the course YOU think they ought to take infringes on the 2A.  I might even agree with you, having actually been taught safe weapon handling by a USMC Gunnery Sergeant myself, but I am not going to say that everyone else should have that experience.
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Offline frgood

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #42 on: April 20, 2017, 03:59:34 PM »
ugh! Please. enough of the "you can't tell me what to do crap"

There are a ton of quality instructors on this forum alone that can provide all of us with optimal knowledge and training to be safe, proficient concealed carriers. There are also enough intelligent people within this forum capable of collectively, intelligently, and with consensus develop a reasonable curriculum and social baseline.

Regarding personal rights infringement. Even the founding fathers did not develop a system of anarchy. We are all quite aware of the wording of our Constitution and its Amendments. Some have even read the Federalist papers entirely. The question is not about stomping on our collective rights. I think the question should be how to manage our society effectively. Some form of management is to be expected. It really is in everyone's best interest for each of us to speak our piece and then all vote on how we should proceed. Sounds familiar?
It all sounded a lot funnier in my head.

Offline Sicamosley

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Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #43 on: April 20, 2017, 05:14:38 PM »
ugh! Please. enough of the "you can't tell me what to do crap"

There are a ton of quality instructors on this forum alone that can provide all of us with optimal knowledge and training to be safe, proficient concealed carriers. There are also enough intelligent people within this forum capable of collectively, intelligently, and with consensus develop a reasonable curriculum and social baseline.

Regarding personal rights infringement. Even the founding fathers did not develop a system of anarchy. We are all quite aware of the wording of our Constitution and its Amendments. Some have even read the Federalist papers entirely. The question is not about stomping on our collective rights. I think the question should be how to manage our society effectively. Some form of management is to be expected. It really is in everyone's best interest for each of us to speak our piece and then all vote on how we should proceed. Sounds familiar?

Completely disagree.  We have freedom of speech.  We are not required to wear gags until we take safety courses in how to speak.  With that, if someone issues threats of violence, then they are subject to punishment.

If some idiot decides to run around pointing his gun at people, then punish him accordingly.

Tyranny is born from the seed of the Government (someone else) believing they know what's better for the people, than the people.

I like this forum, but a safety "curriculum" written by its members to which I would be expected to acquiesce in regards to how I am to handle my firearms, would be of less value to me than a handful of toilet paper.


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« Last Edit: April 20, 2017, 05:20:08 PM by Sicamosley »

Offline PPS1980

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Re: Crazy things my carry permit class instructor said:
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2017, 08:36:33 AM »
"I think the question should be how to manage our society effectively."  Wow. You really don't see that you are all in favor of infringing rights because you, or some group you agree with, knows best.  It's amazing that so many get away with the 'I'm pro-2A, but.......'

If you have read the Constitution and Federalist Papers and understood them then the phrase "shall not be infringed" without ANY caveat or limiter would be clear and unambiguous. It's not anarchy to follow the Constitution, but it leads to it to say 'I agree with this law, except....'
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Browning Hi Power, SAR K2-45, Ruger LCP, S&W 442, Ruger MkII, & FEG PA-63
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