Author Topic: Alliant Sport Pistol  (Read 2932 times)

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Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2017, 05:47:04 PM »
Loaded up the ladder. I'll be shooting my Berry's 115 gr CPRN bullets. Following Alliant's standard pressure load data. 1.135 OAL and 4.5 gr to 4.9 gr of powder. Max is 5 gr but I am thinking of running a ladder of their +P and that goes from 4.8 gr to 5.4 gr.
"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2017, 11:29:33 PM »
So it was a bad day for me at the range. Sighted in a new red dot on my SP-01 Compact. Then got to the Sport Pistol. My full size SP-01 has a new CGW bushing and I figured out that it changed the POI up from where it had been. All that is to say I was incapable of testing group size today.

But... My cases are noticeable cleaner in the interior at every step of the ladder than with 700X. Had burn marks on my cases from 4.5 gr to 4.7 gr. I noticed that it was a lot less smokey than 700X and even BE 86. I didn't notice any sparks or major muzzle flash. I do see muzzle flash with BE-86, even though it supposedly has stuff to suppress that (don't get me wrong, it isn't a lot and I think it looks awesome!). 

The recoil impulse is more than 700X at the bottom of its charge window (so soft that it is stupid). The recoil is softer than BE-86, so it seems to be fitting in the burn rate that they aimed for (around HP-38). Come to think of it, I think it was burning cleaner than HP-38, but it's been a while since I've shot my HP-38.

Overall I really like this powder. Sorry I sucked too bad today and could provide groups. Here's a few picks. 15 yards. You can see I kept changing my grip or my sight picture. I should have just shot free hand. It's embarrassing, but here's the pics I took.



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"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

SPO1SHADOW

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #32 on: June 26, 2017, 07:18:56 PM »
Powder Valley has 8 pound jugs for $129.00. I just pulled the trigger on a jug. Can't wait to give it a try, been hearing a lot of good things about it.

Offline HeinyO

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #33 on: June 27, 2017, 03:40:56 PM »
Ok, I would like to ask for some advice.  I have used Accurate's AA7 7 for 9mm and .40 S&W.  Didn't like it due to the fact that it would leak out of my powder measure and was much grittier and had a stiff pull on  the measure handle.  Switched to Power Pistol and have had really good results so I have stuck with it.  Can anyone tell me the negatives of using power pistol?   I think it meters very well, but  I am thinking of trying something else. It seems there is a lot of folks high on BE-86, Tightgroup, and Bullseye.  Any strong opinions on trying something new or should I just be happy with being satisfied where I am.
Time - The greatest teacher that eventually kills all of her students. - Synchronicity

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #34 on: June 27, 2017, 04:39:59 PM »
You would need to tell us what application you wanted to use it for.  You would not want to use Bullseye and Power Pistol for the same application, so what are you loading for?  50 yards bullseye competitions?  "Action shooting" competitions in 9mm minor?  Plinking?  Defense loads?

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #35 on: June 27, 2017, 04:41:50 PM »
Ok, I would like to ask for some advice.  I have used Accurate's AA7 7 for 9mm and .40 S&W.  Didn't like it due to the fact that it would leak out of my powder measure and was much grittier and had a stiff pull on  the measure handle.  Switched to Power Pistol and have had really good results so I have stuck with it.  Can anyone tell me the negatives of using power pistol?   I think it meters very well, but  I am thinking of trying something else. It seems there is a lot of folks high on BE-86, Tightgroup, and Bullseye.  Any strong opinions on trying something new or should I just be happy with being satisfied where I am.
Depends on what you're looking to get out of your powder. I got BE-86 for a slower pistol powder. It sounded like a slightly improved and slightly faster version of Power Pistol, but I could be wrong.

This new powder, Sport Pistol, is a faster burn rate than BE-86 and Power Pistol. It a medium to fast burn rate, like Hp-38. Maybe a just a fast pistol powder. It can produce velocities that make it work for minor power factor, it's clean, meters well, and they put out a ton of load data. So if you want a faster powder I'd recommend it.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline HeinyO

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #36 on: June 28, 2017, 12:26:19 AM »
I am using it to practice with. Target shooting. May get into some competitions as I improve my skills. But, for now poking holes in paper at various distances.  There is  a lot of talk about faster/slower burning powders. What are the advantages of each? According to Chuck Hawk, burn rate is meaningless.  http://www.chuckhawks.com/powder_burn_rate.htm.   Thanks for your input.
Time - The greatest teacher that eventually kills all of her students. - Synchronicity

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #37 on: June 28, 2017, 01:10:46 PM »
That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that.  Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:

  • His premise is that burn rate charts are worthless.  His conclusion restates that burn rate charts are worthless.  Not one iota of his argument talks about burn rate charts or their organization.  His argument is about the limitations of relative quickness, which makes his article completely off topic in relation to his premise.
  • AND even for what his article does do in terms of support, it does it poorly.  The fact that ballisticians use relative quickness rather than burn rate is irrelevant.  It is incredibly common for industry experts to use terms that are different than the terms used for public consumption.  Pointing out that the ballisticians don't use the term burn rate so that he can suggest that burn rate is meaningless is either dishonest or stupid.

Basically, Wakeman clearly doesn't think burn rate charts are of much use, and he has good cause for that, but the argument he makes is a whole lot of smoke.

The truth is that a universal burn rate chart is inherently flawed.  You can take a particular bullet in a particular caliber of a particular diameter made of a particular material and of a particular weight and load it to a particular OAL, then load it with all the powders appropriate for that caliber, run tests at an ambient temp of 80F, and rank those powders in order by burn rate.  The tests should be as repeatable as the gear used to run the tests are precise. 

The problem is that different powders respond differently to different variables, so different variable sets will produce different burn rate orders.  It's not going to be dramatic.  Power Pistol is going to be slower than Bullseye with all variable sets. But two powders that are closer together, like 3N37 and N340, those might flip flop going from one bullet weight to another, or one caliber to another.

That all means that when you are looking at a universal burn rate chart, that chart might not be 100% true for any variable set, much less all variable sets.  Someone somewhere placed those powders on order based on typical orders or averages or whatever.  I don't think anyone can say for sure, but one thing we can say for sure is that no two powder manufacturers use the same method.  It's clearly as much art as it is science.

But that doesn't mean that burn rate charts are meaningless.  Given a caliber, a bullet weight, and desired velocity range, the powders best for that application are going to group together by burn rate. 

HP-38 and the powders right around it on a burn rate chart are more useful for driving 124gr bullets to velocities between 1050 and 1080 feet/sec for 9mm "minor power factor" USPSA and IDPA competitions than AA7 is.  And AA7 and the powders right around it on a burn rate chart are better for driving a 115gr bullet to 1200-1250 feet/sec for 50 yard bullseye competition.  And Varget and the powders right around it on the burn rate chart are worthless for both applications.

That's what burn rate and burn rate charts are good for.  I know Powder X is great for Application A, so if I want to know what other powders might be good for application A, I can look on a burn rate chart for the powders right around Powder X.  That's pretty much it.

So what would I recommend for you?

If you wanted to shoot 9mm Luger at 50 yards at a 1-inch circular target, where time and thus recoil are not significant concerns, I would recommend a 115gr bullet at 1200+ feet/sec and Power Pistol.  And if not Power Pistol, something of a similarly slow burn rate.

If you wanted to shoot 9mm Luger competitively at ranges from 7 - 35 yards, at 6x12-inch targets, where how much time it takes you to shoot is calculated into your score, so recoil is a factor to consider, I would recommend a 124/125gr bullet from 1050-1080 ft/s with HP-38 or any other powder close to that on a burn rate chart -- things like Bullseye, N320, Titegroup, American Select, Ramshot Zip, Red Dot, Prima V, WST, etc., etc..

AND if you wanted to develop a general target load you could shoot at a wide variety of distances and carry over into action shooting, go with the action shooting load option #2 above out of the gate, and focus on accuracy in load development.

Also, because burn rate charts are useful in terms of powders grouped together, burn rate charts that group powders in tiers are more useful than charts that rank them 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8....  The ones that rank in numerical order can be misleading.  If you're going to look at one for anything, it's better to look at one like this: http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/burn_rates.pdf

Offline RenegadeDave

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #38 on: June 28, 2017, 04:43:43 PM »
For action pistol games, picking a nice middle of the road burn rate powder then developing for accuracy is probably the way to go.  Most people don't even bother developing for accuracy since we're shooting at such large targets. 

You should be aiming for 132ish powerfactor for being safe at chrono.  There's not a wild difference in feel of 132 down to 128, but if you undercharge by .2 gr you may be on the ragged edge. 
Check out my Youtube channel! I geek out on CZ's and post match videos. 
https://www.youtube.com/user/GoliathGT

Offline painter

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #39 on: June 28, 2017, 08:05:28 PM »
That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that.  Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:

<snip>
He's the world's foremost expert...just ask him. ;)
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #40 on: June 28, 2017, 09:23:00 PM »
That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly, and I really want to avoid that.  Let me say two things about Wakeman's article:

<snip>
He's the world's foremost expert...just ask him. ;)

Exactly  ;)

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #41 on: June 28, 2017, 09:25:10 PM »

That appears to be randy Wakeman writing that article for the Chuck Hawks page.

I would need to write twice as much as Wakeman to explain the several ways he's wrong, and then 5 times as much to explain burn rate thoroughly...

Curses!  That bit in red there should say:

5 times as much to explain burn rate as thoroughly as I can, which still isn't all that thorough. ;)

Offline Moe Mentum

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #42 on: June 29, 2017, 07:37:22 PM »
I just started on BE 86,  I'll see how that goes first.

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #43 on: June 29, 2017, 09:57:00 PM »
BTW here's some pictures of my bores after shooting. Both guns had some 700X loads through them previously, so they had some messiness on the ramps and surrounding parts already. But these bores look cleaner than any other powder I've used. My list isn't crazy, but I've run 700X, HP-38, Longshot, BE-86, and now Sport Pistol. If you can tell, the buildup from Sport Pistol is more grey in color. Not sure it's coming through... Anyways, I had forgotten to look at my bores and I'm very pleased!

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)

Offline Scarlett Pistol

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Re: Alliant Sport Pistol
« Reply #44 on: June 29, 2017, 10:00:52 PM »
I just started on BE 86,  I'll see how that goes first.
I like BE-86! Not as slow as Longshot (I know that is not really a pistol powder, but I've run it and it worked well for getting faster velocities). But there's just something about BE-86... Even with the flash suppressant I still see sparks indoors on some shots, it creates great velocities, was really accurate, and powerful! It's good stuff for what it is meant to do. Don't be discouraged about having it by any means.

Sent from my Nexus 5X using Tapatalk

"In God I trust. All others must supply data."
"I respect that the choice of pistols is very personal. Although, if someone is devoid at least one CZ, they've chosen the wrong pistols"  - Scarlett Pistol
1) CZ 75 Compact Classic - 9mm
2) CZ SP-01 - 9mm
3) "SP-01 Compact" (CZ 75 Compact)