Author Topic: Evo w/tailhook brace  (Read 1330 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline steveTA1983

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Evo w/tailhook brace
« on: July 14, 2017, 03:11:47 PM »
Is it legal to use it as "something" other than a brace (you know what I mean) as long as you don't modify the brace in any way??  I know the ATF opinion has changed, but just wondering what the pits here think  :)

Offline John A.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2017, 05:12:56 PM »
Actually, no I don't know what you mean.

"Something"

Something could be a garden snail, a garden gnome, toe fungus, or even steam or crayons.

When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline Dezfan

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 41
  • Live Free or Die!
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2017, 05:33:04 PM »
A axe is still an axe even if you use it as hammer.
Happiness is a warm AK!

Offline Asmodeus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2017, 06:34:46 PM »
Shouldering the brace no longer counts as "the construction of an illegal SBR".  This week.  Day.  Afternoon... minute. 

Keep in mind decisions about these things are likely made by someone very similar to this. 




And can change at any second...

Offline steveTA1983

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2017, 06:55:50 PM »
Shouldering the brace no longer counts as "the construction of an illegal SBR".  This week.  Day.  Afternoon... minute. 

Keep in mind decisions about these things are likely made by someone very similar to this. 




And can change at any second...
Lol!! Good point!!

Offline Asmodeus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2017, 09:44:39 PM »
Also the tail hook is phenomenal.  No shade to the other options out there but I have a hard time understanding why you would pick anything but the tailhook/folder at this point. 

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17347
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2017, 10:16:33 PM »
As of right now, the opinion letter that was sent stated incidentally shouldering the device didn't constitute redesign, but deliberately altering it, (removal of nylon strap on some, changing length of pull to be useless as a brace, etc.) would then constitute a redesign thus making the firearm into a Short Barreled Rifle, thus subject to all NFA rules. I believe that opinion letter was addressed to only one actual manufacturer, but is being held through oral contacts with ATFE as being applicable to all Arm Brace manufacturers. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but my understanding is that if you shoulder your TailHook as an incidental act, it will not be considered an illegal act. This is not legal advice and should not be taken as such, your mileage may vary, subject to availability, not available in all states, no refunds or returns, do not use in the shower, not to be used as a safety device and subject to verification.

Offline SouthernScorp

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 841
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2017, 11:03:09 PM »
anyone know if using this for SBT-Evo will "redesign" into a stock?

https://www.midwestindustriesinc.com/product-p/mi-sbtsa.htm

since you're basically bolting both halves of the brace together rather than strapping them together.
CZ Scorpion Evo S1 Pistol:

SLR Synergy Mini comp
SBT-EVO Brace
PMM Safety Levers
Dual HBI Prostock Charging Handles
Gearhead Mag Release
HBI Trigger Spring
HBI Delta Trigger
PMM QD Front & Rear
Magpul MS1 + QDs
Holosun HS515cu on ADM low mount
Vendetta VP-17-A AFG

Offline John A.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1344
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2017, 11:06:43 PM »
ATF would probably classify that as a redesign.

The main reason that I think so, is I have a friend who has designed an upper receiver for a gun.

In order to get it approved as a "NON-GUN", he had to send it to them for their determination.

They approved it, but said that ANY redesign, even what type of metal he used, any change in ANYTHING from the submitted upper, would need to be re-evaluated at that time.
When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.

Offline steveTA1983

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #9 on: July 14, 2017, 11:15:55 PM »
As of right now, the opinion letter that was sent stated incidentally shouldering the device didn't constitute redesign, but deliberately altering it, (removal of nylon strap on some, changing length of pull to be useless as a brace, etc.) would then constitute a redesign thus making the firearm into a Short Barreled Rifle, thus subject to all NFA rules. I believe that opinion letter was addressed to only one actual manufacturer, but is being held through oral contacts with ATFE as being applicable to all Arm Brace manufacturers. I am not a lawyer, nor do I play one on TV, but my understanding is that if you shoulder your TailHook as an incidental act, it will not be considered an illegal act. This is not legal advice and should not be taken as such, your mileage may vary, subject to availability, not available in all states, no refunds or returns, do not use in the shower, not to be used as a safety device and subject to verification.
I figure so it unless you get told to stop, and if so, play dumb.  Ignorance is a bliss

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17347
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2017, 12:18:15 AM »
I believe I heard of one person being arrested for the shouldering of a brace during the time when ATFE said it was illegal, but, IIRC, the case was dismissed. Can't remember where that was. I remember the first opinion letter that said it was OK, and then everybody had to poke the bear over and over again, until ATFE got irked. We can only try our best to get SBR/SBS off NFA if the SHUSH Act or HPA actually get passed/signed into law. Long shot, but better chances than we've had before.

Offline steveTA1983

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 24
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2017, 11:06:25 AM »
I believe I heard of one person being arrested for the shouldering of a brace during the time when ATFE said it was illegal, but, IIRC, the case was dismissed. Can't remember where that was. I remember the first opinion letter that said it was OK, and then everybody had to poke the bear over and over again, until ATFE got irked. We can only try our best to get SBR/SBS off NFA if the SHUSH Act or HPA actually get passed/signed into law. Long shot, but better chances than we've had before.

We can keep our fingers crossed.  People are getting all pissy because it has t been done yet,  but we still have 3.5 years and there is more pressing issues ATM. 

Offline Asmodeus

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 378
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2017, 07:33:06 PM »
there is more pressing issues ATM.

Nah, that's pretty pressing.  We need to START with the removal / gutting of the NFA.  Then go from THERE in the next 3.5Y. 

I want my money's worth for the election of the glorious captain cheeto.  He promised a wall, and other bigly things for us gun doods if we all swore loyalty.  I was there with bells on, family and friends in tow pushing his button.  And so was everyone else I know.  They have this saying called... F U pay me.  Now I want paid.  We have 3.5Y's for them to put together a feeble effort just in time for the midterm elections to swing the balance out of our favor and nothing to get done.  Still don't have 7n6 back.  Vepr's are still banned.  Can't get ammo from China still.  Bafte is still consulting the magic 8 ball whenever they respond to the opinion letters. 

Pay me.  I want paid.  The left is going to babble about Russia for the next 10 years regardless of what he does.  So why not give them a few other things to talk about.  This is the problem with us.  Oh just hang on, we don't want to offend anyone and we're busy allowing CNN to run interference for 6 months...  ::)

When instead it should look like this...

« Last Edit: July 15, 2017, 07:35:02 PM by Asmodeus »

Offline armoredman

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 17347
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2017, 11:21:38 PM »
Chill. Keep that for the RKBA forum, please. This has to deal with ATFE and the interpretation of the opinion letter, all we can go on right now.

Offline Jjason

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 58
Re: Evo w/tailhook brace
« Reply #14 on: July 16, 2017, 12:49:59 PM »
For the record I run a Tailhook setup and shoot it however I want.  I don't believe the ATF has any interest in having their "rules" on braces challenged in court.  No one has ever been arrested for "misusing" a shoulder brace.

That said, the Tailhook used w/ a factory stock is quite a bit different from what GHW submitted to the ATF for approval.  Basically when the ATF approves your product they say it is ONLY approved if used exactly as you submit it and the final product should not change dimensions, design, etc.



Although I hope no one ever asks, it is possible the ATF would not have approved the Tailhook if it were submitted attached to a factory Scorpion stock.  Who knows.  Had GHW submitted the sample attached at the rear of the tube I'd be more confident that they'd be okay with our Scorpion setups.  It sucks that they chose to mount it in the middle of the tube.

It should also be stated that most products sold by SB Tactical today are FAR different than their initial products.  As far as I'm aware they only received approval for the original models.  I could be wrong about that but I've seen them state anything to the contrary.  I've never seen a letter specifically for the PDW brace, for example.

All in all the ATF are telling us "we don't care, just don't do anything stupid."  It is up to us to leave well enough alone and just enjoy the freedoms we have.