Author Topic: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo  (Read 1282 times)

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Offline Ruber

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #15 on: August 21, 2017, 10:54:25 AM »
I would also add to go through the thread on SP01 break in in the stickies and address how those issues (breach face leading edge, ejector, etc.) compare with your gun.  In my experience, single issues are rare, but obvious when you know what to look for.

CZs are solid guns, 2,500 rounds is not much when looking at parts having a rough/misshapen edge.

Offline olfarhors

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #16 on: August 21, 2017, 11:31:56 AM »
well IF it is occurring with both factory new and reloads  then I would contact CZ and send it in for inspection.
I currently have 3 CZ pistols in 9 MM, a P-01, a Sp-01 and a Shadow II.
the P-01 is past 7000  , the sp-01 past 5000 and the shadow at about 1500 rounds and not a single malfunction so far.
 I shoot 92, 100, 115, 124 grain projectiles and use  mostly HS-6 or Accurate #5, but have loaded with HP-38, Win 231  and unique as well.
something isn't right with the weapon in my opinion.

Offline SoCal

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #17 on: August 21, 2017, 12:33:54 PM »
I would look for a burr or something wrong with the hood, extractor, breach face, etc.  Make sure rails, slide internals, etc. are clean.  If noting is obvious call CZ, my SP-01 runs flawlessly  (as do those of people I shoot with) 115, 125, 135 and 147 factory and reloads.
If I had known how much better being retired is than working I would have done it FIRST.

Offline 2bfree

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #18 on: August 21, 2017, 01:00:53 PM »
Did you ever take care of your problem you had back in March ?

"I recently bought an SP-01 as a gift to myself before the spring semester started up. I made the trip to my buddy's land to shoot the gun the day after my purchase and it was awesome! Put 150 rounds through it on a windy Iowa day in January and have been waiting for the opportunity, and time, to get back out and shoot it again.
Yesterday I went back out and put 250 rounds through it. Great, except when my friend was shooting and it started to double feed, twice in one magazine and more from there. I kept track of which mag was which and it did it again. Eject the round, tap, rack...floor pad flies forward and the spring pops out. I assembled everything and notice the nipple holding the floor pad isn't seated quite the same as the other. Is this a known issue with these magazines or did I just get a bad one? Other than that it's a great shooter. I've wanted one for about 4 years now and was really excited about it. Hopefully it can get handled quickly and without problems.   
I'm assuming, which I hate to assume, I should dig up my receipt and contact CZ-USA to see if they'll replace the mag. "

Offline HSThompson

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #19 on: August 21, 2017, 04:39:42 PM »
Since you've had the gun only since January and assuming it was bought new I would contact CZ-USA and explain the problem to them.The gun is under warranty and CZ customer service is very good.
I own 7 CZ's 6 of them in 9mm and they ALL function perfectly on any ammo I feed them. Bullet weight has no effect and my reloads consist of some cases that are beat up pretty well and have been loaded well over 10 times.


Thanks I'll give them a call. When I said Jan 15 I meant 2015.

Offline HSThompson

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #20 on: August 21, 2017, 04:41:54 PM »
How so? I mentioned right off the bat it was 115gr ammo & after the first reply mentioned it the brands I use as well as some reloads. I threw out the info I thought was necessary, if more is needed please ask, otherwise thanks for the help. 👍🏻


If you'd have anwsered all the questions in the thread shown below, you'd probably be much further down the road at this point. Otherwise, these type threads turn into guessing games that go on for 3 or 4 pages.

I'm not complaining. Simply pointing out how these things run.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=79410.0

I started in the SP-01 since I figured it was a gun specific issue. Had I known the thread would be moved perhaps I would've read that. Thanks for the link

Offline HSThompson

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #21 on: August 21, 2017, 04:49:55 PM »
Did you ever take care of your problem you had back in March ?

"I recently bought an SP-01 as a gift to myself before the spring semester started up. I made the trip to my buddy's land to shoot the gun the day after my purchase and it was awesome! Put 150 rounds through it on a windy Iowa day in January and have been waiting for the opportunity, and time, to get back out and shoot it again.
Yesterday I went back out and put 250 rounds through it. Great, except when my friend was shooting and it started to double feed, twice in one magazine and more from there. I kept track of which mag was which and it did it again. Eject the round, tap, rack...floor pad flies forward and the spring pops out. I assembled everything and notice the nipple holding the floor pad isn't seated quite the same as the other. Is this a known issue with these magazines or did I just get a bad one? Other than that it's a great shooter. I've wanted one for about 4 years now and was really excited about it. Hopefully it can get handled quickly and without problems.   
I'm assuming, which I hate to assume, I should dig up my receipt and contact CZ-USA to see if they'll replace the mag. "

Yes I did. That I believe was the year I bought it. They sent me another magazine & I sent them the old one back. I ran heavier gr bullets through it that summer with only a few 115gr thrown in. Seemed fine for a while the started happening with both mags with 115gr

Offline HSThompson

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #22 on: August 21, 2017, 04:56:41 PM »
well IF it is occurring with both factory new and reloads  then I would contact CZ and send it in for inspection.
I currently have 3 CZ pistols in 9 MM, a P-01, a Sp-01 and a Shadow II.
the P-01 is past 7000  , the sp-01 past 5000 and the shadow at about 1500 rounds and not a single malfunction so far.
 I shoot 92, 100, 115, 124 grain projectiles and use  mostly HS-6 or Accurate #5, but have loaded with HP-38, Win 231  and unique as well.
something isn't right with the weapon in my opinion.

I was expecting it to run similar to how you describe your guns. I'll give them a call when I get a chance after giving another look over & post back what I find. Thanks again for the help everyone

Offline Wobbly

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #23 on: August 22, 2017, 10:45:34 AM »
I started in the SP-01 since I figured it was a gun specific issue. Had I known the thread would be moved perhaps I would've read that. Thanks for the link

Ah ! That explains a lot. Most of the "moves" include a move notice from the super moderator. Yours did not. And understand that moderators in this forum had nothing to do with that move and receive no notice of your move.

You can post this in the SP-01 gun forum, if you like. The key is to leave any mention of ammo out of the title. Discussing the issue without dwelling on ammo may be somewhat difficult, but it's not impossible.

Maybe those insights will get you hints from both sides. Sincerely hope this helps.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'starting load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong ?

Offline HSThompson

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #24 on: August 23, 2017, 12:17:39 AM »
I started in the SP-01 since I figured it was a gun specific issue. Had I known the thread would be moved perhaps I would've read that. Thanks for the link

Ah ! That explains a lot. Most of the "moves" include a move notice from the super moderator. Yours did not. And understand that moderators in this forum had nothing to do with that move and receive no notice of your move.

You can post this in the SP-01 gun forum, if you like. The key is to leave any mention of ammo out of the title. Discussing the issue without dwelling on ammo may be somewhat difficult, but it's not impossible.

Maybe those insights will get you hints from both sides. Sincerely hope this helps.

 ;)

I appreciate it, thanks

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #25 on: August 23, 2017, 08:39:19 AM »
If you're going to send it back to CZ they should be able to fix it.

I will tell you that my P01 had a feed issue early on.  Now, I only shoot 115 grain hollow points through it and those would, every so often, hit the feed ramp and just stop.  The bullet wasn't moving up into the chamber, just the nose hitting the feed ramp and then locking every thing up.

The feed ramp looked good.  A nice shiny black color and I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

Once day I happened to run my fingernail up/down that nice shiny black feed ramp and I could feel a line/place in it.  Not barely, but pretty well.  I can't say why it wasn't visible, it just wasn't, but I could feel it.

I got out my dremel, a polishing wheel and the lapping compound and began to polish the feed ramp.  No angle changing, just polishing what was there.  Polished all the black away and still couldn't see the spot and by that time I couldn't feel it with my fingernail either.  I cleaned it up, lubricated the pistol and put it back together.  I've not had a single failure to feed since that feed ramp was polished up.  It was hard for me to believe a line I couldn't see would be an issue.

Check your feed ramp (fingernail check, not just a visual).
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline HSThompson

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #26 on: August 23, 2017, 10:15:00 AM »
If you're going to send it back to CZ they should be able to fix it.

I will tell you that my P01 had a feed issue early on.  Now, I only shoot 115 grain hollow points through it and those would, every so often, hit the feed ramp and just stop.  The bullet wasn't moving up into the chamber, just the nose hitting the feed ramp and then locking every thing up.

The feed ramp looked good.  A nice shiny black color and I couldn't see anything wrong with it.

Once day I happened to run my fingernail up/down that nice shiny black feed ramp and I could feel a line/place in it.  Not barely, but pretty well.  I can't say why it wasn't visible, it just wasn't, but I could feel it.

I got out my dremel, a polishing wheel and the lapping compound and began to polish the feed ramp.  No angle changing, just polishing what was there.  Polished all the black away and still couldn't see the spot and by that time I couldn't feel it with my fingernail either.  I cleaned it up, lubricated the pistol and put it back together.  I've not had a single failure to feed since that feed ramp was polished up.  It was hard for me to believe a line I couldn't see would be an issue.

Check your feed ramp (fingernail check, not just a visual).

I will definitely give it the fingernail check. Visually looks fine.

Online IDescribe

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #27 on: August 23, 2017, 10:20:04 AM »
HSThompson, Wobbly is correct.  You have not been perfectly forthcoming with info.  And it's impeding our ability to assist you.  A highly relevant example is that 1SOW asked you What specific commercial ammo causes the the problem? You responded:

Quote
Winchester, Federal, Hornady, etc..

Here's the problem -- none of those are specific.  Winchester and Federal have 15-20 types of 9mm ammo, with 3-6 at any given bullet weight.   There's a reason that that is a relevant omission.

One of the problems we run into here in this AMMO subforum helping people troubleshoot their problems is that people looking for help will often decide ahead of time what the root problem is, then in looking for the solution, they shade all the data they give us toward the root problem they've already decided upon, which very often isn't the root problem at all.  That IS the case here, and here's why:

Bullet weight does NOT affect double feeds and stove pipes.  It's preposterous.  Some unfortunate stacking of geometric variables between bullet profile, magazine, and feed ramp might cause two live rounds to feed from a mag, but NONE of those are tied to bullet weight.  Magazine problems can be a cause, but that's not tied to bullet weight.  Insufficient recoil energy as it relates to slide speed or too strong of a recoil spring might lead to stove-pipes with a live round trying to feed simultaneously, but that's not tied directly to bullet weight either, and if it were, since velocity is the dominant variable in kinetic energy, lighter, faster bullets usually produce more energy within a given product line than the heaviest bullets, not less.  Recoil energy is the reciprocal of muzzle energy, mitigated by pistol weight and recoil spring.  As long as you're talking about the same pistol, you can look at muzzle energy as a relative reference for recoil energy, and 115gr bullets simply aren't behind in energy.  They're often ahead of 124gr, and if not ahead, VERY close, and always ahead of 147gr.    Here are some examples with specific cartridge, velocity, and muzzle energy:

Winchester White Box
115gr FMJ -- 1190 feet/sec -- 362  ft-lbs
115gr JHP -- 1225 feet/sec -- 383  ft-lbs
124gr NATO -- 1140 feet/sec -- 358  ft-lbs
124gr WinClean Target -- 1130 feet/sec -- 352 ft-lbs
147gr JHP -- 990 feet/sec -- 320  ft-lbs

I threw in the 124gr NATO for a more powerful 124gr round, and the 124gr Winclean Target for a standard.  The site I used did not have WWB 124gr standard.  Regardless, 115gr will produce more recoil energy than even the 124gr NATO, which in turn produces more energy than their 147gr.

Federal American Eagle
115gr FMJ -- 1160 feet/sec -- 344 ft-lbs
124gr FMJ -- 1120 feet/sec -- 345 ft-lbs
147gr FMJ -- 1000 feet/sec -- 301 ft-lbs

Here, the 115gr and 124gr are 1  ft-lb different.  And the 147gr bullet is well behind in energy.


Speer Gold Dot
115gr GDHP -- 1200 feet/sec -- 355 ft-lbs
124gr GDHP -- 1150 feet/sec -- 364 ft-lbs
147gr GDHP -- 985 feet/sec -- 326 ft-lbs

Here are some defensive loads.  The 124gr bullet does produce more energy than the 115gr bullet, but the 115gr bullet is still well ahead of the 147gr.  If nothing else, this should show you that the energy that cycles that slide is not tied directly to bullet weight. 

So that's all point #1.  Or was it #2?  Regardless, the root problem you're trying to track down is NOT bullet weight.  There's nothing about the weight of the bullet to directly influence feeding.


Next point.  You say you've shot about 2500 rounds through the pistol.  We know you shot 400 back in March of 2015 when you got the pistol and had this same problem, though you attributed it to a bad magazine.  So you've shot about 2000 rounds in the last 29 months, almost two and half years.  You have also said:

I ran heavier gr bullets through it that summer with only a few 115gr thrown in. Seemed fine for a while the started happening with both mags with 115gr

Okay, in the last two and half years, you've averaged about 200 rounds per 3 months.  Clearly not all of those were 115gr.  Clearly you had no problem for a while.  We don't know what commercial 115gr ammo you were running when it worked fine.  We don't what commercial ammo you were running when it started to mess up.  We don't know how many of those 2000 rounds you've shot in the last two and half years were shot before the problem re-appeared.  We don't know what percentage of the ammo since the problem re-appeared was 115gr.   This is all relevant.  We know you ran it for a while without problems.  We can assume since it's a two and half year span since last the problem existed, AND you're trying to fix it now, that the problem is recent?  Right?  I would guess the last outing or two?  Or three?  I mean, if the problem existed a year ago, why would you just be looking for help now?  So I'm GUESSING the problem has sprung up in the last couple of outings, maybe even THE last outing.  And since we're spreading 2,000 rounds over 29 months, and we're looking at just the last couple of outings, how many rounds have you shot over the span where the problem re-emerged?  400-500? 700? With as few rounds as you've shot through this pistol overall, it's unlikely that over the span of the more recent problem, that you've shot such a wide variety of ammo that you could reasonably claim it happens with ALL 115gr ammo.  It's happened only with 115gr, sure.  But not all.  It's not likely it's happened with many different specific 115gr ammo models at all.

So let's get some basic info.  You have shot about 2000 rounds in the last two and half years since your original problem.

How long ago did the problem appear (or re-appear)?

How many outings have there been since the problem re-appeared?

Realistically, how many rounds have you shot since the problem appeared?

What ammo specifically?  And if you don't know specifically, just say so.   

If you do know, did it happen more with some than others?

Have you shot that Federal Champion 9mm 115gr FMJ in the ALUMINUM cases?  It's a maroon-ish box, and is commonly available at Walmart and other big box stores.   Have you had problems with that?

Did you strip your pistol of Cosmoline?

And finally, how much do you shoot?  When the problem is "I'm periodically getting stove-pipes," ejection issues, limp-wristing is a possibility.  AND grip work is good for everyone. ;)
« Last Edit: August 23, 2017, 04:43:40 PM by IDescribe »

Offline copemech

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #28 on: August 23, 2017, 11:06:23 PM »
Ok, since ID threw out all that, and I have nothing better to do, I will throw out the question!

If all three bullet weights were load to the same PF, would the one with the one with the lesser peak force yet the longest duration be able to accelerate the slide better than  the one with the highest force for a lesser period until the bullet exits the barrel?

The slide needs to accelerate, and force over time is cumulative if I understand correctly. .

I do not pretend to know the answer to this. I am just a poor mechanic with a good assortment of hammers!

Online IDescribe

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Re: SP-01 Stovepipe/double feed w/115gr ammo
« Reply #29 on: August 24, 2017, 12:21:01 AM »
If all three bullet weights were load to the same PF, would the one with the one with the lesser peak force yet the longest duration be able to accelerate the slide better than  the one with the highest force for a lesser period until the bullet exits the barrel?

Free vocab tip: the amount of time something remains in process, like the amount of time a bullet is in the barrel, can be referred to as dwell time;)

Two things:

ONE -- PF is simply a measurement of momentum.  It gets used in action shooting as a means to establish a minimum level of recoil, and it's an imperfect measurement for that purpose.  I have no idea all the different conversations that took place leading to the adoption of momentum as the preferred measurement of recoil for action shooting sports, but I strongly suspect that simplicity had something to do with it. 

Momentum is mass times velocity.  You can calculate that in 20-30 seconds with pencil and paper.  Muzzle energy is mass times velocity-squared divided by 450,435.  I do NOT want to calculate that with pencil in paper.  And actual recoil energy is impossible at a practical level.  There's no way that anyone is calculating that at a weekend match as it requires that you measure or calculate the recoil velocity first. 

Basically, momentum is easy to calculate.  So we talk about momentum in action shooting, and we move the decimal three places to the left and call it Power Factor.  If someone isn't in action shooting or doesn't spend a lot of time in gun forums, that person probably doesn't know what power factor is.  And if someone is not in action shooting BUT that person DOES spend a lot of time in gun forums, that person probably thinks Power Factor is a lot more useful a measurement than it is. ;)

TWO --
One obvious major complicating factor in any discussion of this kind is that the barrel and slide are locked together and motionless for somewhere between 99.9-100% of the dwell time, depending on gun and load.  The bullet is usually ALL the way out of the barrel before the slide moves, or it may be ALMOST ALL the way out of the barrel before the slide moves.  This definitely makes a difference as to what kind of impact the relevant dwell time would have, and none of us has any clue as to how much if at all with any given pistol and load. 

That ALONE makes a discussion like this impossible for us, the ignorant masses.  ;)

So is the significantly greater energy of the lighter bullet at the same PF overcome by the increased dwell time of the heavier bullet?  None of us knows.  And I would imagine that getting a single answer based on same power factor is impossible.  There's too much more involved.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2017, 01:19:59 AM by IDescribe »