Author Topic: Just not sure how to interprit this?  (Read 460 times)

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Offline copemech

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Just not sure how to interprit this?
« on: September 02, 2017, 12:23:14 AM »
So I take my test loads with the RMR 124 JHP skinny bullet to the range for chrono testing and accuracy. Well, the results were not terrible, but? I will post a pic that reveals several groups of ten rounds at 15 yds. This was with my P09 with red dot off a rest, and I think you can easily tell which group was the first. And I know I easily cut those groups in half with my .22's and run of the mill ammo.

Not all is bad here, but not all is good. The loads averaged about what I expected at 1058 fps under 4.2 gr of HP38 for a PF of 131 or so.

I am old and accuracy TESTS are more difficult now with iron sights. I am not totally satisfied with any results from my P09, but it is the olly one in 9mm that I have that has a dot mounted. It WILL hit ad 50 yds, yet my results hav never been better than a 4-6 in group there either. I am no Joe  L..

I like these bullets, but for now I am undecided on their overall performance as compared to the PD, and I do not have a direct side by side, so if others can chime in with their opinions I would appreciate it.  RMR vs PD, pet loads and all.

Mind you that for now I am just loading these for range fodder.



Offline Boris_LA

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2017, 01:11:33 AM »
I have never tried RMR JHP, but loaded PD 124 JHP with different powders for testing. The best I could do at 50' was with 4.0gr HP-38 - 0.5" + 1 flyer opened it to 1". I had a few decent groups with HDY JHP (HAP) and lighter 115gr PD FMJ, but finally give up on this powder in a favor of Titegroup. Just like on your picture HP-38 had almost always have one or two shots that strayed from the otherwise good cluster. It was never good enough for longer distance of 25-50m with this combo. The closes to my requirement was HP-38 3.9gr with HDY 125gr HAP bullet. At 50m I had 2" main cluster group but still with one off opened it up to 2"+. Most other combinations were similar to your 4-6" at 50m.
Even hand measured and trickled HP-38 was never consistent for me.

Online IDescribe

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2017, 05:42:16 AM »
I have a list of questions:

  • Your thread title indicates that you want us to discuss your inability to interpret something never clearly identified.  Is that really what you want us to discuss?  YOUR inability?
  • Or do you want us to help you interpret something?
  • If so, wouldn't it be helpful for you to title the thread "Need help interpreting _______________" where the blank is filled with what you want us to interpret?
  • Would simply taking the time to write a clear, specific question or two BEFORE you start the thread help YOU to focus your post?  To determine what details are relevant and what details are not?
  • What is it about the photo that makes you think we can easily tell which group was shot first?
  • More importantly, why is it relevant which group was shot first? I have no idea why I need to figure that out.
  • The target suggest you had four points of aim.  At what four points were you aiming to produce four different groups?
  • Is your real point with this thread to ask if those are decent 15 yard groups?
  • What does it matter what relative group sizes you believe you can make with a different gun in .22?
  • Why do you say loads plural when you are apparently talking about multiple groups with just one load? 
  • Or were there other loads than the one you specified used?
  • What do 4-6 inch groups with unspecified loads at 50 yards have to do with these groups at 15 yards with one load?  How is that relevant to the thread?
  • How can we compare RMR to PD based on your RMR targets but WITHOUT your PD targets?
  • Even if we had a target of yours showing groups with a PD bullet, wouldn't we need a broad range of loads with multiple bullets and multiple powders to make a comparison between two different manufacturers?
  • Is the real point of this thread to initiate a general discussion of RMR vs PD?
  • If so, would a thread title like "RMR vs PD" be helpful to direct discussion?
  • And if so, would a a general comparison of the manufacturers be better off WITHOUT a picture of a target with one load from one of the manufacturers?
  • What specifically are we supposed to help you interpret?

You are always going to get responses no matter how unclear your question is.   That's the nature of this subforum.  This is a technical subforum where people hope to learn or help, and it's frequented by regulars who want to HELP or offer insight.  If you include the phrase "50 yards" in a thread, Boris is going to offer what he can because he cares about Bullseye.   And no matter how unclear your point is, the endlessly kind and helpful 1SOW is going to give it his best.  Countless others are going to be willing to give it a shot.  But don't assume that because you're getting answers that your post is clear.  It's just as probable with an unclear post that you're simply getting the best efforts of good people driven to help others. 

I know a post like this might appear like I'm giving you a hard time, might even appear mean-spirited.  It's not.  I deleted that one.  ;)  The issue here is that if you have a real question you need answered, you're doing this wrong.  If someone reads your post and isn't clear what you're asking, you're hurting your own cause, and you're wasting their time.  And if you don't have clear questions, or you don't really care about what information is produced, maybe this belongs in A Day at the Range subforum.

Just a few thoughts.  Help us help you.  What specifically are you asking?

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #3 on: September 02, 2017, 08:27:09 AM »
  • The target suggest you had four points of aim.  At what four points were you aiming to produce four different groups?


You don't have a bullet issue, you have an eyeball issue.

The human eye needs a target. Round, BLACK, and easy to see. If you'll simply do the entire test over, but this time flip the paper over and fill-in a small black circle with a black marker, then your groups will shrink by half.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'starting load' we rely.

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Offline M1A4ME

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #4 on: September 02, 2017, 09:20:33 AM »
In my experience a dot can make it harder to shoot small groups.  It's target dependent.  Target size/shape/aiming point all contribute to my issues.

If the dot is larger than the target it makes it tough to maintain POA - if you are trying to center the dot on the target.

If your POA is the bottom of the target then it's tough to always have the same gap/lack of gap between the dot and the bottom of the target.

Ideally, for me, the dot needs to be slightly smaller than the target (round bulls eye) so I can get a ring of target visible around the dot.

I have, several times over the years, installed a red dot optic on a rifle, only to eventually put a scope on it because the dot holds me back on group size.

We can argue about how important tiny (smallest possible) groups are with a self defense handgun but you are talking group size.

I'm not suggesting you take the dot sight off (I too suffer from inability to focus on that front sight without a good set of glasses) I'm just saying that you may benefit from getting the right sized/shape target for the distance you're shooting and the dot size on your sight.

Now, the flyers.  Do you have good enough technique/trigger control that you know, I mean know it, when your pistol goes off and the sights are not lined up?  When I let one go and the dot (or front sight) isn't where I wanted it to be I know it.  I read you were shooting from a rest, but does the dot still move in relation to your aiming point?  Do you see the movement is, sometimes, not quite on the POA when the hammer is released?

How consistent is your powder measure with that powder?  Do you weigh out the charges when developing a load?  Do you, sometimes, weigh several measured charges to see if it is consistent with a powder or powder charge amount/setting?  I've seen some powders hang up below the rotor and result in a charge being "light" and then that powder drops with the next charge and results in a "heavy" load on the very next cartridge.  Some powders seem to take a very aggressive smacking/knocking of the charging handle on the powder measure to prevent that.  Others flow like water, seemingly.

Have you measure the diameters of some of the bullets?  Have you weighed them (sorry if you did and I missed it in your post) to see if they are consistent in weight.

Good luck with it.  Sometimes, you just find that some bullets are more accurate than others.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline muncie21

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #5 on: September 02, 2017, 05:46:12 PM »
As always, the feedback from the folks on this forum is on point and relevant.

Looking forward to the responses

Offline Roger Vick

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #6 on: September 02, 2017, 08:06:31 PM »
For the first go with this bullet load combination looks good to me. Good enough to warrant more load research and more shooting. 

Offline Boris_LA

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #7 on: September 02, 2017, 09:02:54 PM »
If you include the phrase "50 yards" in a thread, Boris is going to .....
You just blew my cover   :o
Am I THAT predictable?  :P

Offline copemech

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 12:59:51 AM »
Oh MY! Soo many questions and only two typing fingers! Great responses though!

Thanks to Boris for that insight! I did not post the ES or SD numbers on these, but they were less than ideal, with SD in the mid teens, and this is with my HDY powder measure on the LNL seeming to be pretty darned consistent in metering that powder. .   

I think this is mostly vertical stringing and that could explain things.

Others have reported good results from these bullets, and personally, at the 15 yd mark I would like to see those groups reduced to near half.

Offline copemech

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 01:37:50 AM »
I have a list of questions:

  • Your thread title indicates that you want us to discuss your inability to interpret something never clearly identified.  Is that really what you want us to discuss?  YOUR inability?
YES, Is this just stringing? I had a lot of good trigger pulls in there. I am no expert.
  • Or do you want us to help you interpret something?
  • If so, wouldn't it be helpful for you to title the thread "Need help interpreting _______________" where the blank is filled with what you want us to interpret?
  • Would simply taking the time to write a clear, specific question or two BEFORE you start the thread help YOU to focus your post?  To determine what details are relevant and what details are not?
Sorry, my BRANE doed not function in that mode,as I am not a wrighter, righter, rodger, roger!
  • What is it about the photo that makes you think we can easily tell which group was shot first?
Du, because it is the worst!
  • More importantly, why is it relevant which group was shot first? I have no idea why I need to figure that out.
Only because I am human and usually start  off sucking just a bit!

  • The target suggest you had four points of aim.  At what four points were you aiming to produce four different groups?
Gun was zeroed for 50 yds, all POI were high , POA were top L and R corner, Mid center, Bottom center. Groups being the issue, not POA

  • Is your real point with this thread to ask if those are decent 15 yard groups?
Pretty much so, as I am not satisfied with them and not really sure why?

  • What does it matter what relative group sizes you believe you can make with a different gun in .22?
Just a comparative reference standard for me.

  • Why do you say loads plural when you are apparently talking about multiple groups with just one load? 
One load, said plural!

  • Or were there other loads than the one you specified used?
no

  • What do 4-6 inch groups with unspecified loads at 50 yards have to do with these groups at 15 yards with one load?  How is that relevant to the thread?
Because to some extent I have to start questioning the hardware. I used this because it is generally accurate, has the red dot, and a 4" barrel for the chrono.

  • How can we compare RMR to PD based on your RMR targets but WITHOUT your PD targets?
  • Even if we had a target of yours showing groups with a PD bullet, wouldn't we need a broad range of loads with multiple bullets and multiple powders to make a comparison between two different manufacturers?
  • Is the real point of this thread to initiate a general discussion of RMR vs PD?
Possibly, does anyone else here have comparative data?

  • If so, would a thread title like "RMR vs PD" be helpful to direct discussion?
  • And if so, would a a general comparison of the manufacturers be better off WITHOUT a picture of a target with one load from one of the manufacturers?
  • What specifically are we supposed to help you interpret?

This was a general generic topic and question which is terribly muddy for some such as yourself that are a much better writer than me.

[/list]

You are always going to get responses no matter how unclear your question is.   That's the nature of this subforum.  This is a technical subforum where people hope to learn or help, and it's frequented by regulars who want to HELP or offer insight.  If you include the phrase "50 yards" in a thread, Boris is going to offer what he can because he cares about Bullseye.   And no matter how unclear your point is, the endlessly kind and helpful 1SOW is going to give it his best.  Countless others are going to be willing to give it a shot.  But don't assume that because you're getting answers that your post is clear.  It's just as probable with an unclear post that you're simply getting the best efforts of good people driven to help others. 

I know a post like this might appear like I'm giving you a hard time, might even appear mean-spirited.  It's not.  I deleted that one.  ;)  The issue here is that if you have a real question you need answered, you're doing this wrong.  If someone reads your post and isn't clear what you're asking, you're hurting your own cause, and you're wasting their time.  And if you don't have clear questions, or you don't really care about what information is produced, maybe this belongs in A Day at the Range subforum.

Just a few thoughts.  Help us help you.  What specifically are you asking?

[/I like and want your imput.color]

Offline copemech

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #10 on: September 04, 2017, 01:24:32 AM »
  • The target suggest you had four points of aim.  At what four points were you aiming to produce four different groups?


You don't have a bullet issue, you have an eyeball issue.

The human eye needs a target. Round, BLACK, and easy to see. If you'll simply do the entire test over, but this time flip the paper over and fill-in a small black circle with a black marker, then your groups will shrink by half.

 ;)

Yea, I hear ya, but the only target I ever saved and hanging in the garage was done about  3 years back with my Ruger MKII at 25 yards, black iron sights, black target on a black background that I could not even see where I was hitting, just kept aiming in the same place. And that is lie 7 of  10 rounds in a 5/8 circle and I cannot recall what ammo, possibly 30 year old Aguilla that cost ten bucks a brick.


 

Offline copemech

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #11 on: September 04, 2017, 01:27:25 AM »
Correction, 6 of 10 O0

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #12 on: September 05, 2017, 09:54:43 AM »
Yea, I hear ya, but the only target I ever saved and hanging in the garage was done about  3 years back with my Ruger MKII at 25 yards, black iron sights, black target on a black background that I could not even see where I was hitting, just kept aiming in the same place. And that is like 7 of 10 rounds in a 5/8 circle...

And therein lies one of the biggest lessons I could teach you... most shooters cannot see the bullet hole, so why lift your head ? The only thing achieved is "coming out of position" so that you need to spend 5 minutes getting back into position.

And too, when you raise your head, it's generally to see how close you came to the bulls eye. But that's not the object ! The object is to get your bullet holes to "group"... so that the sights can be adjusted... so that you CAN hit the bulls eye.

 ;)
In God we trust; On 'starting load' we rely.

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Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong ?

Offline copemech

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #13 on: September 05, 2017, 11:09:25 PM »
Yea, I hear ya, but the only target I ever saved and hanging in the garage was done about  3 years back with my Ruger MKII at 25 yards, black iron sights, black target on a black background that I could not even see where I was hitting, just kept aiming in the same place. And that is like 7 of 10 rounds in a 5/8 circle...

And therein lies one of the biggest lessons I could teach you... most shooters cannot see the bullet hole, so why lift your head ? The only thing achieved is "coming out of position" so that you need to spend 5 minutes getting back into position.

And too, when you raise your head, it's generally to see how close you came to the bulls eye. But that's not the object ! The object is to get your bullet holes to "group"... so that the sights can be adjusted... so that you CAN hit the bulls eye.

 ;)

You are absolutely correct, and I am just shooting for groups here. I am simply trying to aim at the same spot in each group. The red dot is 3moa, but that does not cover but about 1/2 in at that distance.

Well, since I was planning upon doing some load development with the BE-86 anyway, I ran off a low starting charge test batch to compare.  It may be a while before I know, because there are several issues here right now, including a surgery on my shooting hand!

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Just not sure how to interprit this?
« Reply #14 on: September 07, 2017, 08:38:00 AM »
...the only target I ever saved and hanging in the garage was done about  3 years back with my Ruger MKII at 25 yards, black iron sights, black target on a black background that I could not even see where I was hitting, just kept aiming in the same place.



Aiming at the "same place" would be nearly impossible at 25 yards with that big target and iron sights. In my 10-15yd ammo testing I use a NRA TQ2 target that has a 2.3" black circle. (The entire target is like 4x5" !) You can buy 1000 of these from National Target for $20, or you can print the same diameter black circle with your home computer.

What I'm trying to tell you is that within reason, the smaller the bulls eye is, then the smaller your group will be. I think that's a lot of your issue.

« Last Edit: September 07, 2017, 08:40:05 AM by Wobbly »
In God we trust; On 'starting load' we rely.

Immature reloaders ask: What's wrong with this gun?
Mature reloaders ask: What did I do wrong ?