Author Topic: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...  (Read 1074 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline dpsk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« on: September 02, 2017, 11:43:17 PM »
...and in light of my Birthday next week, I decided to go ahead and order a P-10C  ;D.  Now, I'm not a Glock hater, as I've owned 5 of them (currently have 4).  However, the Gen 5 is really only a marginal improvement over the Gen 4.  IMO, Glock is being outclassed by numerous other manufacturers, and really needed a revolutionary improvement over the Gen 4 to overcome the current competition.  Don't get me wrong, the Gen 5 is (I'm sure) a perfectly fine pistol, but it's not a home run in today's market.  Will Glock sell a boatload of Gen 5s - you bet.  However, I think the P-10C is currently in the running at the top of it's class.  It has everything I wanted in a new pistol at an affordable price.  I also own a P-07 and plan on modifying the 4 magazines I have for it for use in the P-10C.  I ordered my P-10C from DEGuns.net for $499.99.  I added a package of Ballistol wipes for 25 cents so the total came to just over the $500 minimum to qualify for free shipping.  Range report to follow after I take delivery.
Cheers.

Offline SSGN_Doc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #1 on: September 03, 2017, 01:53:57 AM »
Where do you think the other brands are outclassing the Glock, out of curiosity?
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 09:37:23 AM by SSGN_Doc »

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #2 on: September 03, 2017, 07:06:02 AM »
There do you think the other brands are outclassing the Glock, out of curiosity?

I think outclassing refers to the markets diversity in design and features today. The glock doesn't work for everyone and the market has responded with many different models with good features and those who care too take the time to look can find a pistol that suits them very nicely without settling for the same old cookie cutter model. glock also doesn't have the market cornered on reliability either as there are many highly reliable models out there.
glock is marginalizing itself by offering the same basic design instead of trying something new that would appeal more of the market than just it's diehard fan base. I think of how Colt has done the same over the years riding their reputation right into the ground,never really offering anything more than a 1911 based pistol that only appeals to those who like that style pistol. Now they get serious about the concealed carry market with a reboot of the Cobra revolver when compact semi-autos are the rage?? That's just plain out of touch marketing in my opinion.
Companies that continue to offer improvements and features that appeal to a broader spectrum of consumer are going to eclipse those who stay the same old path.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 07:09:32 AM by SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM »

Offline Indy_Tim

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 385
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #3 on: September 03, 2017, 08:55:53 AM »
I like Glocks and have owned 8, with three currently still here.  But, I'd have to agree with SSGN_Doc and SVPP.  Glocks reputation is built on reliability, so many of the changes made in the new Gen 5 have zero added value.  The trigger feel might be better though, but I've heard mixed reviews on that.  A buddy of mine thought that the new Gen 5 trigger was getting close to the P10C, but others have said that they feel no difference.  Glock needs to do more than just change up the grip texture and presence or lack of finger grooves to be considered innovative.  They are great guns, but there's been little innovation in decades with them.

Offline SSGN_Doc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #4 on: September 03, 2017, 10:15:48 AM »
Fair answer.   I tend to mostly hear  how the new polymer framed, striker fired pistols  have triggers that outclass the Glock trigger.  They tend to do this by using fully tensioned strikers.  With some of the issues cropping up with fully tensioned strikers in many of the newer striker fired offerings I'm beginning to form an opinion of two classes of striker fired guns more than an outclassing.

Since many of the fully tensioned strikers seem to be prone to releasing the striker with any significant impact, such as dropping, striking the pistol they may not be the "best in class"  for defensive use.  Take a breath and let me explain further, because I can already hear people saying "I don't drop guns."  And "These guns don't just go off when dropped."

I"ll address the last statement first.  Correct, not every fully tensioned striker fired pistol will go off if the sear releases due to a drop or a blow to the pistol.  The striker block safety is there for a reason and as long as the trigger doesn't go rearward and deactivate that safety the gun will not fire, because the striker isn't contacting the primer.  But if the sear releases the striker, you may have a dead trigger and not know it.  It can be rectified by operating the slide just like an immediate action with any Failure to fire.  But it is a second or seconds which could be critical, and depending on the altercation, next to impossible to perform.

For the, "I don't drop my guns" crowd.  You either don't handle them enough in a day to day basis, haven't run hard enough with them, and have likely never been in a full contact fight with a firearm involved (not that any of that is a bad thing).  There was a thread on another forum just about "I dropped my gun" stories.  That site is mostly visited by LE, Military, Trainers and competitors.  Not all if the stories were about their personal weapons, but they have seen holsters missed, retention devices not engaged, people tripping and falling while running in pursuit or just from competative stage firing point to another.  They've been tackled and taken to the ground where a firearm gets slammed around a bit.  Friends of mine who were deployed have been near IEDs and thrown to the ground, in rocket and mortar attacks, fallen into ditches or holes in the ground on night patrols.  Basically there is an area where pistols absolutely can be subjected to severe impacts and even simple drops that can be from complacency just from handling them so much each day, to all out things beyond the operators control once a combative situation is encountered.  I'm just asking folks to look outside the box they may exist in and would apply the statement "I don't drop my guns" to.

Does this mean I condemn fully tensioned striker fired pistols as the shooting market continues to clamour for the ultimate, light weight, short travel, crisp release and short reset trigger with no external safeties?  Nope.  Have what you want or need to shav those hundredths and tenth a of seconds of the split times on the shot timer.  I'm just saying they MAY not be the best class for SERIOUS use.  I may be wrong.  But the P320 flap, whether it was justified fully or not, at least has me thinking and questioning where the "ultimate sweet striker fired trigger" fits in for handgunners. 

Offline SSGN_Doc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #5 on: September 03, 2017, 10:40:38 AM »
Oh, and for the record, I agree a bit on the dangers Glock faces in marketing moderate changes at best.  I will say they are a bit of a victim of their fan base and the aftermarket that built up around their pistols.  Any sweeping change would threaten a lot of the comparability and interchangeability that they have catered to over the years.  If theyvdid something as simingly simple, yet radical, as changing their grip angle it could mean a whole different magazine that is not comparible with previous generation mags.  In the Glock community it is huge.

I also understand the Glick grip angle and shape is not universally accepted and one of the most voice complaints.

The trigger is underwhelming I. Light if more recent releases or other match triggers in the market.

And to put perspective on things before I am labeled a fanboy, I have recently moved away from my Glocks in favor of returning to DA/SA pistols for carry.  I had been carrying Glocks for about a decade and a half before that.  So, I have an understanding of them, but try to maintain a realistic perspective on them for what they are and what they aren't.


Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1802
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #6 on: September 03, 2017, 12:16:37 PM »
^^^glock could still introduce a new design/features/style and still maintain the product lines already in place yet appeal to an even broader market. CZ is doing it, S&W is still producing a slew of revolvers along with the M&P series, Springfield armory is pretty diverse as are many others so it certainly could be done. I know a few guys who are die hard glockies and they'd buy anything with that roll mark on the slide.

Offline jimjc

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #7 on: September 03, 2017, 01:17:50 PM »
Fair answer.   I tend to mostly hear  how the new polymer framed, striker fired pistols  have triggers that outclass the Glock trigger.  They tend to do this by using fully tensioned strikers.  With some of the issues cropping up with fully tensioned strikers in many of the newer striker fired offerings I'm beginning to form an opinion of two classes of striker fired guns more than an outclassing.

Since many of the fully tensioned strikers seem to be prone to releasing the striker with any significant impact, such as dropping, striking the pistol they may not be the "best in class"  for defensive use.  Take a breath and let me explain further, because I can already hear people saying "I don't drop guns."  And "These guns don't just go off when dropped."

I"ll address the last statement first.  Correct, not every fully tensioned striker fired pistol will go off if the sear releases due to a drop or a blow to the pistol.  The striker block safety is there for a reason and as long as the trigger doesn't go rearward and deactivate that safety the gun will not fire, because the striker isn't contacting the primer.  But if the sear releases the striker, you may have a dead trigger and not know it.  It can be rectified by operating the slide just like an immediate action with any Failure to fire.  But it is a second or seconds which could be critical, and depending on the altercation, next to impossible to perform.

For the, "I don't drop my guns" crowd.  You either don't handle them enough in a day to day basis, haven't run hard enough with them, and have likely never been in a full contact fight with a firearm involved (not that any of that is a bad thing).  There was a thread on another forum just about "I dropped my gun" stories.  That site is mostly visited by LE, Military, Trainers and competitors.  Not all if the stories were about their personal weapons, but they have seen holsters missed, retention devices not engaged, people tripping and falling while running in pursuit or just from competative stage firing point to another.  They've been tackled and taken to the ground where a firearm gets slammed around a bit.  Friends of mine who were deployed have been near IEDs and thrown to the ground, in rocket and mortar attacks, fallen into ditches or holes in the ground on night patrols.  Basically there is an area where pistols absolutely can be subjected to severe impacts and even simple drops that can be from complacency just from handling them so much each day, to all out things beyond the operators control once a combative situation is encountered.  I'm just asking folks to look outside the box they may exist in and would apply the statement "I don't drop my guns" to.

Does this mean I condemn fully tensioned striker fired pistols as the shooting market continues to clamour for the ultimate, light weight, short travel, crisp release and short reset trigger with no external safeties?  Nope.  Have what you want or need to shav those hundredths and tenth a of seconds of the split times on the shot timer.  I'm just saying they MAY not be the best class for SERIOUS use.  I may be wrong.  But the P320 flap, whether it was justified fully or not, at least has me thinking and questioning where the "ultimate sweet striker fired trigger" fits in for handgunners.




I don't agree or buy your narrative that there are "many fully tensioned striker fired guns are prone to drop fire"  There aren't "MANY" and the few that are, are isolated requiring minimal fixes. There millions of guns that are older revolvers and 1911" that are 100% prone to drop fire. I don't see those listed by you.

I happen to own a Sig P320, the drop fire issue is being resolved. I'll not have mine done because I never carry a gun with a bullet in the chamber, so it doesn't matter to me. I have old revolvers and old 1911's also.













« Last Edit: September 03, 2017, 01:19:54 PM by jimjc »

Offline earlan357

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 267
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #8 on: September 03, 2017, 01:21:16 PM »
Played with a gen5 a few days ago.  The new features solve some problems while creating others. 

Pros:
The new barrel looks to have conventional rifling, so people who want to shoot lead bullets should be able to do so safely without buying an aftermarket barrel.  Obviously the ambi slide-stop is good for lefties.  I like the flared magwell, especially on the 19, but not to help speed reloads.  When I grip my Gen4 19, the flesh on my lower palm bulges out and contacts the heel magazine basepad.  I have to shift or loosen my grip for the magazine to drop freely.  I installed an Agency magwell on my gen4 19 to solve this.  Removing the finger grooves just means one less thing to grind off when I stipple.  I like the new striker safety plunger.  Since it doesn't rotate anymore, the trigger pull has the potential to be made more consistent.  The new trigger mechanism might lead to better triggers once the aftermarket catches up...might.  "NY style" trigger spring is compressed instead of stretched, so less potential for breakage.  Trigger bar is thicker and flexes less, removing some of the trademark "spongyness".

Cons:
The sharp cutout in front of the magwell is annoying, leaving a half-moon chaped imprint in my pinky finger.

Meh:
Trigger feels about the same weight as a gen4 but with the feel of a NY trigger.  Nothing to write home about. I guess the orange mag follower helps with ID'ing mag condition in some situations.  The tapered cut on the nose of the slide doesn't match the frame, but nobody buys Glocks for asthetics.  2-pin vs 3-pin, one less part to worry about I guess.  Not sure what was wrong with the old finish, but the new one is quite slippery.

I'd buy one if I didn't already have three Glocks, or if I was left handed.  Also, nice for departments who issue Glocks to left handed LEOs, although the armorers will now have an additional generation of parts to inventory.

Offline SSGN_Doc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #9 on: September 03, 2017, 01:44:45 PM »




I don't agree or buy your narrative that there are "many fully tensioned striker fired guns are prone to drop fire"  There aren't "MANY" and the few that are, are isolated requiring minimal fixes. There millions of guns that are older revolvers and 1911" that are 100% prone to drop fire. I don't see those listed by you.

I happen to own a Sig P320, the drop fire issue is being resolved. I'll not have mine done because I never carry a gun with a bullet in the chamber, so it doesn't matter to me. I have old revolvers and old 1911's also.



Please allow me to clarify and point outa couple of things.  I never said "drop fire" when referring to the class of fully tensioned striker fired pistols.  I did say they have been shown to release their striker and sear engagement under impact.  I went on to explain that the striker block, in proper functioning condition would prevent discharge by keeping the striker from impacting the primer.

The issue many overlook is that with single action strikers you now have a dead trigger and need to cycle the slide to reengaged the striker.  This may be fine.  I'm not condemning the class just pointing out some findings that are surfacing in the fall out of the situation with the P320.  In fairness the P320s that were affected had to experience a pretty limited angle of impact to cause discharge.

Walther PPQ, Canik TP9 single action versions, and HK VP9s have been demonstrated to release their strikers with other impacts.  This does not cause a discharge, but will require cycling the slide before the pistol becomes more than a blunt object again.

Given that you carry with empty chamber, this may not be a significant issue to you.  However for a friend who was recently in an assault in a parking lot and had his strong arm pinned and tied up with his assailant, single handed operation of his pistol became important while grappling in the ground.  He could get his finger inside the trigger guard but got some bad bite wounds on his cheek as a result of how long it took to gain control of the pistol and deactivate his safety due to the position of the assailants hand.  Chambering a round would have been out of the question.  He was finally able to deactivate the safety and get a couple shots off at contact distance.  At least one .45 round made it into the hip of the assailant who finally ran off after he got kicked off of the top of my friend. 

His story is one that pushed me back to double action pistols, loaded chamber and appendix carry.

Offline jimjc

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #10 on: September 03, 2017, 03:28:39 PM »




I don't agree or buy your narrative that there are "many fully tensioned striker fired guns are prone to drop fire"  There aren't "MANY" and the few that are, are isolated requiring minimal fixes. There millions of guns that are older revolvers and 1911" that are 100% prone to drop fire. I don't see those listed by you.

I happen to own a Sig P320, the drop fire issue is being resolved. I'll not have mine done because I never carry a gun with a bullet in the chamber, so it doesn't matter to me. I have old revolvers and old 1911's also.



Please allow me to clarify and point outa couple of things.  I never said "drop fire" when referring to the class of fully tensioned striker fired pistols.  I did say they have been shown to release their striker and sear engagement under impact.  I went on to explain that the striker block, in proper functioning condition would prevent discharge by keeping the striker from impacting the primer.

The issue many overlook is that with single action strikers you now have a dead trigger and need to cycle the slide to reengaged the striker.  This may be fine.  I'm not condemning the class just pointing out some findings that are surfacing in the fall out of the situation with the P320.  In fairness the P320s that were affected had to experience a pretty limited angle of impact to cause discharge.

Walther PPQ, Canik TP9 single action versions, and HK VP9s have been demonstrated to release their strikers with other impacts.  This does not cause a discharge, but will require cycling the slide before the pistol becomes more than a blunt object again.

Given that you carry with empty chamber, this may not be a significant issue to you.  However for a friend who was recently in an assault in a parking lot and had his strong arm pinned and tied up with his assailant, single handed operation of his pistol became important while grappling in the ground.  He could get his finger inside the trigger guard but got some bad bite wounds on his cheek as a result of how long it took to gain control of the pistol and deactivate his safety due to the position of the assailants hand.  Chambering a round would have been out of the question.  He was finally able to deactivate the safety and get a couple shots off at contact distance.  At least one .45 round made it into the hip of the assailant who finally ran off after he got kicked off of the top of my friend. 

His story is one that pushed me back to double action pistols, loaded chamber and appendix carry.






I'm sorry for your friend but if a story makes you change what you do with handguns then your life with guns have been a bumpy ride.

I had a friend, some 40+ years ago that, one sunny morning in his kitchen, handed his revolver to his wife, it dropped and shot her in the head, she didn't die but they couldn't operate, for the position of it in her brain. She proceeded to live 7 years more but she went completely crazy and finally died. I still have almost the exact gun he had. That didn't change my mind because I never carry a bullet in a chamber. I still do what I have done all my life in guns.

No one can cover every possible situation, like your friend getting his arm in a bad position. I have never dropped one gun in all my life and never will because I'm responsible for my actions when handling a gun, yet I still never carry a bullet in the chamber. By the way when walking on the edge of a mountain I never fall off either. Well I'm too far off topic.

Anyway I just don't think the classification of all striker fired guns presents any inherent problems any more than any other category of handguns, it all remains the responsibility of the gun owner.

PS: I do understand the point you're making.











Offline SSGN_Doc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 225
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #11 on: September 03, 2017, 05:34:42 PM »
Sorry for the derail of the thread. 

My change back to DA was not just based on one story, but based on data involving accidental or negligent discharges, a few incidents of released strikers, then the P320 news, and then maintaining a questioning attitude.  Add on my friends story and there was a reconsideration of what I carry to cover the widest spectrum of scenarios.

Offline dpsk

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #12 on: September 12, 2017, 06:30:37 PM »
P-10C in hand.  Unfortunately, I won't be able to get to the range until mid next week.  The slide stop and mag release is as stiff as everyone reports, but I plan on putting around 250-300 rounds through it on it's first range visit to loosen things up. Although after simply "working" the mag release back and forth (left side right side), it seems to be getting better already.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 06:32:30 PM by dpsk »

Offline deadduck357

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 243
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #13 on: September 12, 2017, 07:07:14 PM »
Not a Glock super fanboy :D but but what pistol on the market today supremely surpasses it in quality or reliably or function or affordability??? I just don't see it. From what I've seen over the years is that every other company is trying to get a piece of Glock's success. And please don't get bent out of shape, I own many other brands, including CZs.

CZ openly stated the P-10C was to compete with the G19. Nothing against that, why wouldn't they.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2017, 07:09:40 PM by deadduck357 »

Offline jimjc

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 82
Re: In light of the Glock Gen 5 release...
« Reply #14 on: September 12, 2017, 07:36:56 PM »
Not a Glock super fanboy :D but but what pistol on the market today supremely surpasses it in quality or reliably or function or affordability??? I just don't see it. From what I've seen over the years is that every other company is trying to get a piece of Glock's success. And please don't get bent out of shape, I own many other brands, including CZs.

CZ openly stated the P-10C was to compete with the G19. Nothing against that, why wouldn't they.


In the 80's/90's the ford taurus was a run away success, sold more cars than anything else and changed the car business. It wasn't the best car by far.

Glock is a overpriced gun, based on the quality of it's parts. yes it was a great idea, a gun with few parts. Glock was a genius at marketing and more profitable than any other gun company. Glock has had it's problems with reliability but people like to spread that it's infallible, it isn't. I owned them.

Glock doesn't have the best of anything, not triggers, finish, and the finishing of it's parts. 

Glock happened at the right time and caught on like fire. But I see them falling back the gun industry is moving fast and Glock is like every other successful company it works in past success and doesn't pay attention to the future.

Glock could be even greater but it needs another great idea but I think it used up the only one it had 20+ years ago.
















 

anything