Author Topic: Questions on Choosing Powder  (Read 1760 times)

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Offline Chilidip

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Questions on Choosing Powder
« on: October 18, 2017, 12:51:48 AM »
I've been reloading for a couple of seasons, nothing but 9mm for IPSC.  I've now decided to switch to Standard division and am working up loads for .40, starting with the two powders I used for 9mm which was Titegroup and N320.  In doing some online research of other loads I found a fair amount of folks using N310 and Alliant E3 with much success which are near to top of the burn charts but neither is readily available for me.  I noticed a few spots behind them was Titewad which is available, so starting looking for 40 loads and found a bunch of folks going on about it being very dangerous for 40 and even one photo of a blown up Infinity.

So as a relatively uneducated reloader what would make N310 suitable for 40 and Titewad not suitable?  What other factors are involved beside the speed of the powder?

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #1 on: October 18, 2017, 11:12:25 AM »
Welcome Aboard !

Great question !

Several things are going on. I'll touch on a few and others will hopefully respond too.

? Fast powders are hot powders. That's simply a general rule. So, some "fast" powders burn so hot as to make them generally unacceptable for use with lead bullets. That's is, they contribute to barrel leading to a degree to make them generally unacceptable.

? What makes the "faster" powders fast is that they are typically doped with a higher percentage of nitro. These are called "double base powders". You can Google that and do your own reading. Wikipedia has a good article.

? Obviously, a powder with a high nitro content gets to be fairly touchy in it's disposition/ character/ attitude. That's one reason the load range shrinks so drastically with faster powders. So whereas W231 in 9mm has a 1.2gr load range, Tite Group only has a 0.4gr range. In other words TG is 3 times more sensitive.

? However, there are also "single base powders" available which don't have any nitro. The VihtaVuori N300 series are ALL single base, including N310. All the older IMR powders (PB & 7625) are single base. There are others, but adding nitro is simply too cheap and easy, so the bulk of modern powders are double base. You can download the free MSDS sheet on any powder and easily glean its nitro content.

? Remember that 9mm, 38 Spcl, and 45ACP all have "+P" loads available, when the barrel's steel will allow such. 40S&W is different in that it already IS +P. So in dealing with a 40 cal you're already dealing with elevated pressures relative to the thickness of the steel around the chamber.


So although I'm not familiar with the exact powders you mentioned, I can only surmise that your answer is a combination of touchy powder (due to the nitro content) and the caliber.

?? Also.... and this may be the most important thing.... reloading manuals don't assume anything. They don't know if you've been reloading 20 years on a high-end professional quality Dillon, or just started yesterday with a Lee hammer wacker reloader and powder scoops !! Additionally, when I see that Tite Group is 3 times more sensitive than W231 (as in the example from above), as an educated reloader I read that as "All my reloading process and equipment need to be 3 times more accurate when I use TG." But not everyone reads it that way. "Fools rush in where angles fear to tread." So the manuals may also be trying to save the general public from themselves !


Hope this helps.   ;)
« Last Edit: October 18, 2017, 09:55:41 PM by Wobbly »
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Offline Chilidip

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #2 on: October 18, 2017, 04:33:47 PM »
Ok I think the double versus single base may be a large part of the reasoning as both N310 and E3 are single base versus the double base for titewad.  I am planning to run 180gn TC Plated bullets out of a Tac Sport.

Offline Earl Keese

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #3 on: October 18, 2017, 06:14:54 PM »
I have a buddy that loads titegroup in every pistol caliber he gets his hands on, from 9x19 to .38 to .500S&W. Not a meticulous reloader at all, he makes me extremely nervous.

Offline levellinebrad

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2017, 08:03:11 AM »
Tight group is a fast powder and does burn very hot. I have melted the front sight out of my old cz when doing Bill drills. I used E3 in 9mm and loved it but didn't care much for it in .40. I have been using clean shot in .40 with great success. If you have access to it, I would highly recommend it.
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Offline IDescribe

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2017, 01:51:09 PM »
In doing some online research of other loads I found a fair amount of folks using N310 and Alliant E3

So as a relatively uneducated reloader what would make N310 suitable for 40 and Titewad not suitable?  What other factors are involved beside the speed of the powder?

There is ZERO published data for .40 S&W for N310, e3, or Titewad.  All three of those powders are inappropriate for .40S&W according to the manufacturers.  So why does Titewad have the bad reputation?  N310 is a marketed as a pistol powder and people just LOVE shooting it against the manufacturer's recommendations while chasing fool's gold low felt recoil.  Now, e3 is marketed as shotgun powder, and if you called and asked, they would tell you shotgun only, but people started experimenting with it during the shortage, and people liked it a lot for .40 and 9mm.  With Titewad, Hodgdon didn't just market it as shotgun only -- they actually went out of their way to say it wasn't to be used for pistol.  That it was too fast and dangerous for pistol.  THEN, during the shortage, they developed and published pistol data for Titewad for 9mm.  Go figure.  ;)  So perhaps one of the reasons people think Titewad is too fast and the other two aren't probably has something to do with Hodgdon characterizing Titewad the way they did.  But in reality, all three are ill-advised for .40 S&W.  And all three have blown up guns.  Guns kaboom every weekend around the country.  Going against manufacturer recommendations is one of the contributing factors.  ;) 

As to your burn rate question/assumption--

Burn rate doesn't mean what you think it means, or at least it's not as clear a measurement as we tend to think of it. 

First, what we call burn rate can be controlled by the manufacturer with the primary compound itself, by additives and coatings, or by the shape and size the individual powder particles.  Generally speaking, the fatter the particle is, the lower the surface area to mass ratio, and the slower the burn.  Sometimes manufacturers will use the exact same powder formula, but have different powders of different burn rates in a series, just by changing the size of the particle.  You can see this in the Vihtavuori N300 series, where N310, 320, 330, 340, and 350 have similarly barrel-shaped particles that get bigger and bigger (and burn slower and slower) each step up the product line.

But then there's how "burn rate" plays out, and here's where it gets fruity.  Every variable that affects pressure affects burn rate.  Smokeless powder burns faster the more pressure it's under, and the faster it burns, the faster it builds pressure, so it's a positive feedback loop.  Pressure affects burn rate, which affects pressure, which affects burn rate.  This simple fact, combined with different case volumes of different calibers and how case volume affects pressure, means that burn rates will vary from caliber to caliber, and because different powders are affected differently by changes to case volume, they won't vary from caliber to caliber in the same way.  Then there are the other variables that change things even within a given caliber.  OAL is similar to caliber and case volume, where the shorter the OAL with a given bullet, the smaller the leftover case volume for the powder to occupy, which is the initial combustion chamber.  The initial size of the combustion chamber affects pressure.  How far the bullet is away from the rifling (up to and including when the bullet is outright jammed into the rifling) affects pressure. How well the bullet obturates (fills in the grooves in the rifling, blocking gas from passing by) affects pressure.  Temperature affects pressure.  The friction coefficient between the bullet and barrel affects pressure.  All sorts of things can affect pressure. 

So here's the deal -- those different variables all affect different powders in different ways and to different degrees, especially so with the significant differences you get in case volume between different calibers.  So Powder X might have a faster burn rate than Powder Y in 9mm Luger and .40 S&W, but a slower burn rate than Powder Y in .38 Special and .45 ACP.  So in that case, how do you determine which is faster when piecing a burn rate chart together?  Now factor in all the other variables. The only thing they can do is make a judgment call in each case and give us an inherently inaccurate burn rate chart.  One company might say, "Well, we're going to simply take averages and however comes out, it comes out."  Another company might say "Well, when making our determinations, let's give the calibers and/or bullets we expect the powder to be used with most often more weight in the calculations."  And then some lawyer says "Yeah, but even though our Powder Z falls right in line with Hodgdon's Powder Y with most calibers, Powder Y is a popular powder for 9mm, and our Powder Z was extremely spiky and possibly dangerous with 9mm, so I really do NOT want it right next to Hodgdon's Powder Y on the chart where people might think it's also good for 9mm, and I think we should arbitrarily bump it up to a faster spot."

And that's just with two powders.  Imagine having to place 200 powders in order.  ;)  And, thus, nobody's burn rate chart is the same as anyone else's. 

So when you ask, why are Powder X and Powder Y good for .40 while Powder Z, which appears to be the same in burn rate, is not good for .40 -- the answer is probably that Powder Z tested poorly with .40 because of some consistent physics and/or magic, and the manufacturer is trying to protect you.  ;)  And to reiterate an earlier statement, that's not what's going on here because ALL THREE of those powders are deemed inappropriate for .40 by their manufacturers.

All that said -- don't chase the superfast powders for their lower felt recoil.  It's a joke.  NO ONE will improve going from N320 to N310.  Not one bit.  Recoil management comes from grip and stance.  The kind of recoil differences people chase opting for those superfast powders over one teir up fast powders are utterly inconsequential if your grip and stance are good.  And if you're grip and stance aren't good, nothing else is going to help.  Get a good fast powder where the manufacturer actually recommends it for your caliber, and work up a load. ;) 

Consider Alliant Sport Pistol.  It's new, I've heard nothing but excellent reviews, and the published load data puts it right in the sweet spot for both 9mm minor and .40 major.  You could be the first kid on your block with the new hotness.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2017, 08:04:22 PM by IDescribe »

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2017, 02:41:36 PM »
Also, for the record, e3 is double-base, not single.  ;)

Offline 1SOW

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2017, 04:06:12 PM »
ID explains the myriad of variables neatly.
Bullet weight (inertia vs bullet acceleration and time in the bbl) does make a difference in pressure and felt recoil.
I practiced  with a USPSA Grand Master in Limited division that won or placed high in local, area and even National matches using n320 under 165 grain bullets which surprised me.  He said n320 under 165 gr bullets worked perfectly for him in his pistol,  but heavier bullets did not.....for him...in his STI pistol.
  It's dizzying to try and form conclusions from given powder characteristics from charts, load data sources, people you know AND (drum roll) the  internet.

More less essential variables,  USUALLY:  cool burning is favorable,  clean burning is favorable,  not prone to sudden spikes in pressure at or just above max. load is safer,  low flash/smoke,  uses half a case full for safety,  meters well in your powder system.

Solution:  ultimately  trial and error in your pistols with you loading powder/bullet combinations safely and those with  favorable characteristics for "you".
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 12:41:39 AM by 1SOW »

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #8 on: October 19, 2017, 07:37:57 PM »
...and here's where it gets fruity. 


I was glad t see this. Us old guys need our fruit.

 ;D
In God we trust; On 'Starting Load' we rely.

Offline painter

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #9 on: October 19, 2017, 07:48:16 PM »
...and here's where it gets fruity. 


I was glad t see this. Us old guys need our fruit.

 ;D
ID's pretty young.

You can have his share. ;D
I had the right to remain silent...

but not the ability.

Offline Chilidip

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #10 on: October 19, 2017, 10:42:21 PM »
IDescribe, thank you for the detailed response and giving me more data to work with to start to understand the process/interaction better.  I'm not really chasing the lower felt recoil as I am quite happy with the performance of both the Titegroup and N320 loads I worked up so far.  I was looking to see if there was perhaps an option out there that shot as clean as N320 at a Titegroup price  ;D

Alliant and Nobel powders are tough to get a decent selection of in Canada currently.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2017, 02:18:31 AM »
Major PF in USPSA is 165, and people tend to target 170-172.  I assume in Canada you are using IPSC, where major is 170PF?  Correct?  So you are probably looking for 175-177?  When I look at load data, these faster powders below that are all widely used for .40 major in the U.S. will have you operating at the top of the published load windows to get to a PF of 172-ish, and depending on powder and bullet, maybe it just gets to PF 170-172, or maybe it falls just short, or maybe it gets there with most 180gr but not 165gr.  Or something similar.  You get the picture.  These are right at the edge when going for 170-172.  For 175-177, if you want to stick to published load data, they fall short.  You'll get a lot of people tell you to go right ahead and load them up to 177PF, and I'm not saying they're wrong, and I'm not saying you shouldn't, and I'm not saying I wouldn't -- I'm just saying that you'd be over max standard pressure according to the load data, and .40 S&W has no +P range.

Looking at the slower powders, they seem to take you to the 175-ish PF you would want for IPSC near the tops of their load windows, so according to load data, they are probably more appropriate than the faster ones, if not spot on, though certainly not as popular.

FASTER:
N320
Bullseye
W231/HP-38
Titegroup
Alliant Sport Pistol

SLOWER:
N340
Unique
WSF
True Blue
Accurate No.5

I'd bet you could make some .40 caliber lasers with WSF and a good coated lead bullet or a good JHP.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 02:22:17 AM by IDescribe »

Offline Chilidip

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2017, 09:55:03 AM »
I shoot a plated 180 gn bullet, You are correct on IPSC and my target range being roughly 177PF.  In the test loads I chronographed 5.2 of N320 made 178 PF, 5.0 was at 174, I am going to make a bunch at 5.1 and see where that sits and if it's consistent enough for me to be comfortable if not quite at 177, although the 5.2 round was really accurate in testing as well.

The titegroup rounds 4.7 put me at 176 PF while 4.9 was 180 and didn't show any flattening of the primers.  I think at this point I'll just suck up the cost of the N320 as it's readily available and I do like how it meters and how clean it shoots.  Some of your other suggestions I may pickup some 1 pounders to try some experiments.
« Last Edit: October 20, 2017, 09:57:02 AM by Chilidip »

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Questions on Choosing Powder
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2017, 04:38:02 PM »
Here's something to think about when you're reading primers to judge over-pressure:

.45 GAP  --  max pressure is 21,000 PSI
.40 S&W  --  max pressure is 35,000 PSI
.357 SIG -- max pressure is 40,000 PSI

All three of those use the same small pistol primes.  Since looking at primer flattening and primer flow are supposed to tell you when you are exceeding safe pressure limits, how does the primer know what caliber cartridge it's in so that it know at what PSI level to start deforming?  ;)