Author Topic: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm  (Read 242 times)

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Offline Rcher

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Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« on: December 06, 2017, 03:25:05 PM »
In last several months I managed to shoot from my Sarsilmaz Mega with Witness .22lr conversion kit. Occasionally, I have FTF's, but I can live with that. And because .22lr ammo is cheap and almost no recoil I enjoy shooting from it. But the problem is with groups. When I shoot 9mm from Mega I have decent groups for 30-40 feet, not saying about 15-20 feet distance. But with .22lr  I have bad groups even for 15-20 feet. I tried different ammo (finding which cycles better), results for CCI MiniMag and CCI Standard velocity are better, but still not so good as with 9mm. I tend to think that sights on .22lr slide are not good for me, I like combat 3 white dot sights better. I also have cross-dominant eye (right-handed, but left eye is dominant), so this could be a reason too. Any thoughts?

It is strange that shooting with less recoil produces worse results. BTW, my wife who is new to shooting also has better groups with 9mm, and absolutely horrible with .22lr conversion kit.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 03:35:13 PM by Rcher »

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2017, 04:25:59 PM »
I don't have a Witness to do the comparisons, but I am going to guess the Witness barrel isn't a perfect fit. It is probably a just a smidgeon smaller at a critical point. I would suggest measuring both barrels with a micrometer or caliper to look for differences. Any difference over about 3/1000ths of an inch could make a difference. That is not something you could see with the naked eye.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 04:34:22 PM by DF_Hammack »
Tristar P100 - SAR B6P

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Offline Rcher

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2017, 05:17:00 PM »
I don't have a Witness to do the comparisons, but I am going to guess the Witness barrel isn't a perfect fit. It is probably a just a smidgeon smaller at a critical point. I would suggest measuring both barrels with a micrometer or caliper to look for differences. Any difference over about 3/1000ths of an inch could make a difference. That is not something you could see with the naked eye.

Do you mean to measure diameter of the barrel? Cause Witness .22lr barrel/slide is obviously longer.

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2017, 05:28:20 PM »
I don't have a Witness to do the comparisons, but I am going to guess the Witness barrel isn't a perfect fit. It is probably a just a smidgeon smaller at a critical point. I would suggest measuring both barrels with a micrometer or caliper to look for differences. Any difference over about 3/1000ths of an inch could make a difference. That is not something you could see with the naked eye.

Do you mean to measure diameter of the barrel? Cause Witness .22lr barrel/slide is obviously longer.

Actually, anywhere the barrel contacts the frame. The breech block, in all dimensions, even the dimensions of the locking lug, and the diameter of the barrel. Length is not really a factor. It occurs to me, too, you may mike the frame to slide fit as well.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2017, 05:35:30 PM by DF_Hammack »
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Offline whitecap

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2017, 03:13:32 PM »
Since you are swapping the entire slide, barrel, recoil spring and rod, it is a complete unit. How much side to side play is there between the frame and the conversion slide? How much side to side play is there detected at the muzzle when the slide is at rest.It should be very minimal in both areas. Is it possible to shoot the pistol from a support to try and eliminate as much human error as possible? I mount my conversion kit onto a Match large frame Witness and am amazed at how accurate it shoots. Don't give up.

Offline AngelDeVille

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2017, 05:25:02 PM »
Slide play has zero effect. Consistent lockup and consistent ammo does.

Sandbag a few groups with different ammo types. That should minimize user error.

Offline Rcher

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2017, 07:46:49 PM »
I was on the range today, shooting both 9mm and .22lr. I think I found at least a part of problem I have with .22lr. It is my follow-through. I feel more relaxed with .22lr than with 9mm. I tried to be more concentrated today and keep my finger on the trigger during slow reset and trying not to move. I still need to find more convenient stance for my left-dominant eye, which would be natural for me.

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2017, 04:30:07 AM »
I am also left eye dominant. I didn't find this out till a little over 30 years ago when I was in the police academy and started shooting pistols. Since then, I have learned a lot about cross-eye dominant shooting. The key is training. Doing it the same way over and over again. This guy encapsulates in 11 minutes, the best of what I have learned in that 30+ years. BTW, I prefer his third and preferred method of pistol shooting...
Watch the video. It does not in the least handicap his pistol fire. I would recommend getting a good, quality, pellet pistol to train with. Everything you learn with that directly transfers to conventional firearms, and it won't break the bank either buying it or supplying it.


« Last Edit: December 10, 2017, 04:45:38 AM by DF_Hammack »
Tristar P100 - SAR B6P

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Offline Rcher

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2017, 02:27:26 PM »
@DF_Hammack  - thank you for sharing! This video will definitely help when I'll practice next time.

Offline win308

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #9 on: December 13, 2017, 10:15:40 PM »
My SAR B6p with Tanfoglio .22 conversion installed:


My SAR B6p target with 10 rds of 9mm...shows the 9mm groups pretty good:



Now my target shooting the .22 LR from the B6p with the Tanfoglio conversion installed...same distance:



So I agree, the .22 conversion slide is NOT accurate at all.  Mine functions OK with hi speed ammo (in this instance CCI copper plated .22), but groups are not that great. 

Offline Rcher

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2017, 02:31:16 PM »
@win308 - thank you for sharing, nice groups for 9mm and 10 yards (I'm far from that).

So, I have mixed feelings - it is a relief to know that I'm not alone :), but at the same time it means that SAR frame doesn't 100% fit with Witness .22lr kit, assuming that it is more accurate with Witness frames. Good for plinking cheap bullets and teach kids to shoot, but useless for training accuracy.

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2017, 02:45:43 PM »
It may just be that you expect too much. If your groups look like that, it's consistent with a plinking pistol. I have an ATI Firefly, after a little work, it's not a bad little plinking pistol. Groups look about like that. For target accuracy, you need a target pistol. Sorry, no shortcuts. Is it worthless for training? No, not really, not as long as you are aware of the group of the pistol and place your groups consistently, it's valuable training. If you want to train to medalist proficiency, you need the equipment medalists use.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 04:44:39 PM by DF_Hammack »
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Offline win308

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2017, 03:29:45 PM »
My "real" .22 pistol is a Ruger Mark II bull barrel....stock, but very accurate.  So if I'm trying to get the best .22 grouping, that's the gun I use.  If I'm just training a couple of the Scouts in our church how to shoot, a huge target close up and the Tanfoglio top end on a SAR (or another small frame) works just fine.  So it's not a bad rig for some uses.

Offline DF_Hammack

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Re: Witness .22lr conversion - groups are worse than with 9mm
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2017, 04:40:35 PM »
My "real" .22 pistol is a Ruger Mark II bull barrel....stock, but very accurate.  So if I'm trying to get the best .22 grouping, that's the gun I use.  If I'm just training a couple of the Scouts in our church how to shoot, a huge target close up and the Tanfoglio top end on a SAR (or another small frame) works just fine.  So it's not a bad rig for some uses.

Sorry, didn't mean to imply you had unreasonable expectations. I was responding to the OP. The Ruger is was what came to my mind when I mentioned target pistols. :D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2017, 04:42:10 PM by DF_Hammack »
Tristar P100 - SAR B6P

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