Jury out on Scorpion: Trigger Reset Issues

[3guneric]

I know there is a lot of love here for the Scorpions but:

As a new carbine owner I overlooked the 1st generation magazine issues, the need to do lots of upgrades, (installed HBI charging handle, AK safety and today trigger spring kit), and the need to address sling mounting options.

Well after spring install today, trigger would not always reset.  The reset spring will not sit correctly and is "crossed over" to use a phrase from another post on this site.  I reinstalled factory spring and it is good to go.  (Sent HBI an email on this.)

I am well versed on firearms maintenance and operations and have extensive experience w/ AR, AK, FAL... (M1 Tanks as well.)

Some have told me that the CZ is the "Lego" of guns but really should you have to instantly go into buying upgrades on a brand new gun?

I have faith that in the end it can be a good little gun.  However, at this time I would not count on it in a life or death situation.  I also found myself rationalizing that price-wise it was still way below the cost of any of my handguns.

So, for me, the jury is out on weather or not it is a serious firearm or a PCC plinker.

If yours has fired thousands of rounds without a glitch I am glad for you and I hope mine will eventually do the same.

[Buckshot Barry]

Did you follow this video?

[Earl Keese]

For me, it's definitely a PCC plinker. However, I knew going in what to expect. Otb it was perfectly reliable with a crappy trigger.

[BBossman1]

Did it not work out of the box?

[rcbif]

The origional gun had that heavy trigger spring for a reason - to overcome any potential friction issues of the bolt/fp safety.

If you install the HBI lighter trigger spring, be sure to clean the bolt safety and steel housing very well. Due to the nature of its design, if a single piece of grit gets between the bolt/fp safety and the steel trigger pack frame during reassembly, the trigger can get stuck forward after being pulled.

As far as the "crossed over" thing - I ran into this during assembly, but once corrected it was not an issue.

I would trust my life to the gun (even with the lighter spring) in a clean environment.

Dirty environment, no way, would have to be stock fcg for reliability.

[3guneric]

1. Yes I watched the video.  Followed it step by step.  The HBI spring shifts after a few shots, and just will not hold its position.
2. Yes it worked out of the box - but the trigger sucks (knew that going in.)  That's why I did step #1 above.
3. I was thankful that the trigger screw was not welded.
4. The fact that CZ still ships Scorpions with the horrible safety is a puzzle to me.  I read that it was bad but it was far worse than I expected.  The HBI small AK safety is outstanding!  Why does this not come on the gun in the first place?
5. Still not sure what mags to buy.  I have the 2 factory mags but will need more.  (Read all the posts on pros and cons.)
6. Sling mounts will still need modification.
7. Why the pinky sized charging handle?

My firearms experience to date 40+ years.  Military (Army Armor) including arms room officer and now civilian instruction and 3 gun competitor.  Handled some guns in my time.

I still have hopes for my little Scorpion but much of what I just described could easily be remedied by CZ before they sell to the public.

* NOTE: I have had many discussions over the years with reps from many of the top gun companies.  When I asked those who represent guns known to have rough triggers why that is so I get the same immediate answer - "the Lawyers!

They fear lawsuits that may result if they have a finely tuned trigger.

My Sigs have the SRT , my Colt Competition came w/ a Geissele   

Not expecting that at Scorpion price point - but come on.

[3guneric]

HBI has already sent a replacement!  That is service.  Will update this after installation.

[SouthernScorp]

yeah bud, a call or email to hbi is all you need and they'll hook you up with replacement parts no questions.

[ksuchewie]

I know there is a lot of love here for the Scorpions but:

As a new carbine owner I overlooked the 1st generation magazine issues, the need to do lots of upgrades, (installed HBI charging handle, AK safety and today trigger spring kit), and the need to address sling mounting options.

Well after spring install today, trigger would not always reset.  The reset spring will not sit correctly and is "crossed over" to use a phrase from another post on this site.  I reinstalled factory spring and it is good to go.  (Sent HBI an email on this.)

I am well versed on firearms maintenance and operations and have extensive experience w/ AR, AK, FAL... (M1 Tanks as well.)

Some have told me that the CZ is the "Lego" of guns but really should you have to instantly go into buying upgrades on a brand new gun?

I have faith that in the end it can be a good little gun.  However, at this time I would not count on it in a life or death situation.  I also found myself rationalizing that price-wise it was still way below the cost of any of my handguns.

So, for me, the jury is out on weather or not it is a serious firearm or a PCC plinker.

If yours has fired thousands of rounds without a glitch I am glad for you and I hope mine will eventually do the same.

Thousands of rounds through mine, suppressed & not, and no issues with mine.  I'd trust mine with my life without question.  I have minimal upgrades on mine.

I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "you have to upgrade it out of the box", when it is really personal preference. 
Do you have to modify an AR-15, Glock, 1911, etc. out of the box for them to function?  No.  But they all have tons of aftermarket options available to tailor it to your preferences.  Same goes for performance cars (corvettes, mustangs, etc.)

I can understand the frustration of something not working correctly, but you have to keep in mind that it is likely an exception to the norm, albeit the 30 round mags did have issues with cracking which CZ is making right. 

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[3guneric]

ksuchewie

When I talk to firearms competitors about the single most important element of the mechanics of an accurate gun, the answer is almost always - a quality trigger!  It is generally acknowledged that the OEM Scorpion trigger leaves a lot to be desired.  I am in this camp as well.

You say...

I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "you have to upgrade it out of the box", when it is really personal preference. 
Do you have to modify an AR-15, Glock, 1911, etc. out of the box for them to function?

1. It is my preference to maximize the accuracy of the CZ.  And the poor trigger is generally commented on this forum.  Hence the success of HBI in filling that need. 
2. I am looking for more than simply function.  A MAC 10 will repeatedly spit out bullets down range (thousands of them) but I desire: function, accuracy, and reliability.
3. I have great respect for CZ weapons and know all will be fine in the end however, a few simple changes by CZ would take this from a good/great platform to outstanding.
4. Besides being a handy little carbine around the house/truck I do plan on using it in competition and longer range carbine accuracy will be key!  Hence need for trigger upgrade.

My wife adds that for her the trigger/safety issue is a flaw to her shooting experience.  Part of the reason I got the CZ was for her use at home and on the range.

Glad your happy with yours but I am just putting my experiences out there for others who are considering a CZ for similar purposes as myself.  Thanks for adding your thoughts.

On another front many have invested far more $ into a SIG carbine only to have their firing pins break.  Saw 2 different SIGs go down during one match.

[3guneric]

See this discussion regarding trigger spring "slipping" this is what I have just encountered.  Maybe I will have to add the notch as well.

http://www.czfirearms.us/index.php?topic=76883.0

[sboone]

If you polish the stock trigger you will get a pretty good trigger.  It will be heavyish but it is not bad.  I have had very few guns that I bought with a good trigger, the only one that comes to mind is my Sig 1911, every other gun I?ve bought ranging from cheap AK?s to Ruger SR556 and AUG have had useable to pretty schmeh triggers out of the box, it is considered an acceptable standard because the general public has used its wallet to show that they?ll still shell out $1500 for a gun with an average creepy possibly heavy trigger which will usually clean up with a good polish.

As for the buying upgrades on a brand new gun, you really don?t have to buy upgrades, the scorpion cane ready to go out of the box.  If you wanted to change things that?s a preference thing but out of the box you could slam home a magazine rack the bolt and go to town

[3guneric]

1. After the first couple of shots I knew that safety had go and pronto.  Very stiff and worse the way it digs into your hand.
2. Trigger was an issue I knew about going into the deal.
3. I got the extended charging handle because I was placing an order w/ HBI any way.

All I am saying that with some minor adjustments by CZ, the gun can be even better out of the box.

Conversation #1: (The way it would be today.)

"The CZ Scorpion is a really nice 9mm carbine.  It is priced right, made by a great company, and is a good shooter.  Its modular design really lends itself to customization - you will love it.  BUT many shooters have noted that the trigger is rough, the safety may dig into your shooting hand, sling attachment points will not take QD mounts, however there are lots of aftermarket companies stepping up to help out."

Conversation #2: (Some future date after CZ upgrades design.)

"The CZ Scorpion is a really nice 9mm carbine.  It is priced right, made by a great company, and is a smooth and accurate shooter.  Its modular design really lends itself to customization - you will love it!"

My main point is that this buying experience could be so much better with some very simple fixes by CZ.  CZ could destroy the competition.

[Buckshot Barry]

Just a comment on #1

The stock safety dug in to the top of my index finger so bad during USPSA matches it would draw blood

BUT, I like riding the safety with my thumb and index finder at the same time, just like my AR with ambi safety. Thumb OFF, index finger ON.

Adjusting the safety release tension was easy, just tweak the trigger case with a little bend up.

The Switchback grip with flat back strap was perfect in lowering my hand just enough so my index finger never rubs the safety. Worked perfect last USPSA match, 10 bays and well over 200 rounds.

[ksuchewie]

ksuchewie

When I talk to firearms competitors about the single most important element of the mechanics of an accurate gun, the answer is almost always - a quality trigger!  It is generally acknowledged that the OEM Scorpion trigger leaves a lot to be desired.  I am in this camp as well.

You say...

I'm not sure I understand the mentality of "you have to upgrade it out of the box", when it is really personal preference. 
Do you have to modify an AR-15, Glock, 1911, etc. out of the box for them to function?

1. It is my preference to maximize the accuracy of the CZ.  And the poor trigger is generally commented on this forum.  Hence the success of HBI in filling that need. 
2. I am looking for more than simply function.  A MAC 10 will repeatedly spit out bullets down range (thousands of them) but I desire: function, accuracy, and reliability.
3. I have great respect for CZ weapons and know all will be fine in the end however, a few simple changes by CZ would take this from a good/great platform to outstanding.
4. Besides being a handy little carbine around the house/truck I do plan on using it in competition and longer range carbine accuracy will be key!  Hence need for trigger upgrade.

My wife adds that for her the trigger/safety issue is a flaw to her shooting experience.  Part of the reason I got the CZ was for her use at home and on the range.

Glad your happy with yours but I am just putting my experiences out there for others who are considering a CZ for similar purposes as myself.  Thanks for adding your thoughts.

On another front many have invested far more $ into a SIG carbine only to have their firing pins break.  Saw 2 different SIGs go down during one match.

Completely agree with all just said, I misinterpreted your original post.  My bad.

FWIW, I modified my CZ trigger with the HBI spring & shooters element flat shoe.  A world of difference and it does make the gun more enjoyable to shoot.

The only thing I might add (for everyone) to keep in mind when comparing triggers to other guns is were simply replacing a $10 spring and doing some filing.  A Geiselle trigger on a AR will easily run you $250 so keep in mind the price differences.  Maybe one day someone will create a drop in replacement trigger/hammer set similar to an AR.

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