Author Topic: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)  (Read 1356 times)

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Offline Litshoot

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Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« on: December 29, 2017, 04:54:14 PM »
Very controversial i know, but i am a fan of birdshot for home defense. Its still got a lot of punch and wont have to worry about too much overpenetration. Amd follow it up with slugs in the magazine. Best case it drops them no collateral, otherwise it should definately slow them up for that next slug.  And unlike buck, there only one projectile to worry about with slugs making them my preference over buck shot
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Offline FakeCZName

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2017, 05:20:33 PM »
Litshoot: That depends on what size "birdshot" you use. At close range, it simply does not matter. But at range farther the 20 Yards, you would begin to see lack of penetration for defense purposes in small shot like #8.

On the other hand, if one were to move up in shot size up to #4 or even better #2, you would get deep penetration on an attacker--but you would not get pass-thru on as many layers of drywall as you would with 9mm pistol or Buckshot or slugs.

The only advantage of birdshot for home defense would be that it would be less lethal. That would be a decided disadvantage when your attacker takes you to civil court lawsuit for pain and damages for medical fees and mental care.

Offline Raining_Brass

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #2 on: December 29, 2017, 05:38:02 PM »
A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.

Offline briang2ad

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #3 on: December 29, 2017, 06:51:12 PM »


Offline Lifesaver

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #4 on: December 29, 2017, 08:41:57 PM »
A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.
That's one of those general all including statements that really has little fact to back it up. I think a shotgun with a proper load will flat out level and intruder in the spot they stand. The sound of a pump action racking a round isn't a bad deterrent either. Point it in the doorway of the hallway and your gonna hit whatever is there.

Now where I agree with you would be in a home invasion/hostage situation. Your not gonna take that shot with a shotgun because your likely to hit your love one as well so a shotgun is useless there. 

Online s0nspark

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #5 on: December 29, 2017, 09:05:54 PM »
A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.
That's one of those general all including statements that really has little fact to back it up. I think a shotgun with a proper load will flat out level and intruder in the spot they stand. The sound of a pump action racking a round isn't a bad deterrent either. Point it in the doorway of the hallway and your gonna hit whatever is there.

Now where I agree with you would be in a home invasion/hostage situation. Your not gonna take that shot with a shotgun because your likely to hit your love one as well so a shotgun is useless there.


All generalizations are false, including this one. ;-)

I’ve always felt the choice of home defense weapon should factor in the actual home and occupants to be defended ... I can see a rifle, a shotgun or a pistol being “best” depending on the particulars.

For my situation, nothing beats a pistol.
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Offline FakeCZName

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #6 on: December 29, 2017, 09:27:36 PM »
Raining_Brass: All critters I've killed with shotguns seem to think otherwise. Perhaps you are responding to the "birdshot" notion. But with larger sized shot up to Buckshot, the only thing that might actually be more effective than a shotgun with low-powered #4 buckshot would be a H&K MP-5 set on 2-Shot Burst mode. But I don't have one of those. There is a staggering variety of loads and ammos appropriate for hunting, defense and warfare. You can even vary them in the magazine and still have perfect reliability from birdshot to rifled slugs.

Our soldiers preferred shotguns for trench warfare over the .45 handgun in WWI. Police still use shotguns for house entries and not just because they blow the door, they are good once ya get inside too.

There isn't a land-living critter on earth that hasn't been knocked off with a shotgun. That includes lions, tigers and Cape Buffalo. So to say it is junk for self-defense is just plain wrong.

A shotgun for home defense is just junk. Period. There's no case for it and absolutely no one who knows what they're talking about will ever recommend it. Sorry to be so blunt about it but it's just the truth.

Offline Raining_Brass

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #7 on: December 29, 2017, 10:41:24 PM »
I say again: a shotgun for home defense is not a good choice. Period. I don’t care what ridiculous combination of bird shot (even more stupid than the idea of carrying a shotgun itself) or slugs or whatever you plan on keeping in the tube. Absolutely, positively NO ONE reputable would ever tell someone to use a shotgun for home defense, unless it’s literally all you have.
You can try to use whatever logic pops into your mind to make it a good choice, and in the real world it will still never be a good choice.
You can google literally hundreds of articles and write ups, etc about why I’m correct...many from extremely knowledgeable and experienced people on the subject.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 10:47:17 PM by Raining_Brass »

Offline armoredman

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #8 on: December 29, 2017, 11:57:17 PM »
Gentlemen, keep this civil or it gets locked. Period.

Online s0nspark

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2017, 03:04:33 AM »
I say again: a shotgun for home defense is not a good choice. Period. I don’t care what ridiculous combination of bird shot (even more stupid than the idea of carrying a shotgun itself) or slugs or whatever you plan on keeping in the tube. Absolutely, positively NO ONE reputable would ever tell someone to use a shotgun for home defense, unless it’s literally all you have.
You can try to use whatever logic pops into your mind to make it a good choice, and in the real world it will still never be a good choice.
You can google literally hundreds of articles and write ups, etc about why I’m correct...many from extremely knowledgeable and experienced people on the subject.

I’m sure there are many who feel this way but it is not as black and white as you present it.

First, this is not a case of either/or - one can leverage a shotgun and pistol as part of their home defense strategy. A shotgun is a great “safe room” tool to have available once you have everyone barricaded and are waiting for law enforcement to arrive.

Second, a shotgun’s strength is in being able to leverage different loads quickly which could be an asset for those with rural properties where the “intruder” could be the four legged kind. Home defense doesn't necessarily just refer to "apartment" or "house" defense, after all.

Lastly, as far as reputable instructors who do feel shotguns have a place in home defense, I know Tom Givens has some great thoughts on the subject. For example:

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/download-brochures/44-our-journal/106-shotguns-for-home-defense

Should it be everyone’s first choice? No. I still feel that, if you had to choose one, a (suppressed) pistol is probably the more flexible choice for most people... but to dismiss a shotgun out of hand is just short sighted.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 09:42:27 AM by s0nspark, Reason: expanded on point two »
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Offline briang2ad

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2017, 12:13:24 PM »
MrGunsngear has more experience than the 'average reviewer' including real world.  The reason I posted (its worth the viewing) because he doesn't make any gross generalizations.  He also points out the truth that staying in place in YOUR environment will likely save you and expose your perp.

Thus, also more rounds is good. The P09 does VERY well in this regard and affords a good light of your choice - even max lumens if you want.  So... as a pistol goes, the P09 likely cannot be beat.  If you change systems (DA/SA to C/L - as many folks tend to do over time) the gun is timeless as it allows you to do the change easily. 

I add that 9mm is best as in the P09 with the right mags you have 21 rounds.  Can't beat it with a stick.

But... EVERY piece of data points to this:  If you have a rifle and your opponent has a pistol, you have a major advantage.  That is why he makes the comment and starts there.  I was also 'anti-shotgun' for various reasons, but if you have a handy one, you still have an advantage with the buckshot he recommends over a pistol.  I'd rather havv a carbine.  Better yet an SBR.  Better yet, 7.62X39.  And... maybe aVZ 58.  :)

But to pistols - keep the P09!!!

Offline Edward_Teach

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2018, 10:21:46 AM »
Don't care what you think about the dude or the channel..

But for those who even think bird shot on a 12 gauge is a viable home defense or self defense optjon, go hang out with Joe Biden

Check at the 2:30ish mark,  not 3 feet away, full on 12 gauge birdshot to the face....... take a guess what happened

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Online s0nspark

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #12 on: January 01, 2018, 11:46:14 AM »
Don't care what you think about the dude or the channel..

But for those who even think bird shot on a 12 gauge is a viable home defense or self defense optjon, go hang out with Joe Biden

Check at the 2:30ish mark,  not 3 feet away, full on 12 gauge birdshot to the face....... take a guess what happened

Not sure why anyone would disparage John or ASP... he puts out solid content.

One recurring thought I have regarding self defense tools and training - it seems that sometimes people form their opinions based on how they think things would work or how they feel about them... rather than on how the body of collected data actually says things work.

There are two kinds of stops in a defensive encounter: psychological and physiological. A psychological stop is one where someone decides to stop doing what they are doing in the face of (armed) resistance. Some (perhaps even most) criminals are simple opportunists - they want a safe, easy score and have no desire to face off against a "determined" target  - but not ALL criminals are like that. That is where a physiological stop is required - that type of criminal is stopped because they were physically made to stop.

Since I have no way of knowing where a criminal may fall in that psychological/physiological spectrum, I try to choose tools that will be effective in the worst case scenario. If the simple act of drawing my pistol or presenting a long gun stops an encounter - great! I'm not going to bet my life on that happening, though.

FWIW, my primary HD gun is my carry pistol but I supplement that with a "safe room" gun: a 12ga semi-auto loaded with Federal Flite-Control 00 Buck. I may only have one opportunity to stop a threat and I want that once chance to be as effective as possible. Let no pellet go to waste! ;-)

« Last Edit: January 01, 2018, 11:57:44 AM by s0nspark, Reason: moved vid to end of post »
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Offline Edward_Teach

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #13 on: January 01, 2018, 12:08:50 PM »
Don't care what you think about the dude or the channel..

But for those who even think bird shot on a 12 gauge is a viable home defense or self defense optjon, go hang out with Joe Biden

Check at the 2:30ish mark,  not 3 feet away, full on 12 gauge birdshot to the face....... take a guess what happened

Not sure why anyone would disparage John or ASP... he puts out solid content.

One recurring thought I have regarding self defense tools and training - it seems that sometimes people form their opinions based on how they think things would work or how they feel about them... rather than on how the body of collected data actually says things work.

There are two kinds of stops in a defensive encounter: psychological and physiological. A psychological stop is one where someone decides to stop doing what they are doing in the face of (armed) resistance. Some (perhaps even most) criminals are simple opportunists - they want a safe, easy score and have no desire to face off against a "determined" target  - but not ALL criminals are like that. That is where a physiological stop is required - that type of criminal is stopped because they were physically made to stop.

Since I have no way of knowing where a criminal may fall in that psychological/physiological spectrum, I try to choose tools that will be effective in the worst case scenario. If the simple act of drawing my pistol or presenting a long gun stops an encounter - great! I'm not going to bet my life on that happening, though.

FWIW, my primary HD gun is my carry pistol but I supplement that with a "safe room" gun: a 12ga semi-auto loaded with Federal Flite-Control 00 Buck. I may only have one opportunity to stop a threat and I want that once chance to be as effective as possible. Let no pellet go to waste! ;-)



No I agree with you.

And I guess as of late some other channels have been getting on him or so me bleep idk.

But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away
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Online s0nspark

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Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #14 on: January 01, 2018, 12:37:20 PM »
But more importantly video shows a chick take a full 12g birdshot to the face look coinfused and then just walked away

That whole situation was crazy.

Also shows how people float around in their little bubble oblivious to what is going on around them.
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