Author Topic: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)  (Read 1357 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Mike Russell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #45 on: January 03, 2018, 11:12:34 AM »
I've never shot a shotgun  in a non ventilated enclosed space.  Is it a situation where you will quickly lose the ability to see due to smoke?  I'd bet just like when using your high beams in the road a high lumen weapon light may be mitigated/nullified due to drywall dust and smoke, or am I blowing smoke?

This is highly dependent on your ammo and the amount of rounds expended, but yes it can be an issue. If running field loads and shooting quickly, you're going to end up with a massive cloud. If you've got a weapon light on, then you'll be practically blind (reflection off the smoke) especially if it's one of the high lumen units.

Your house is ventilated, but not as good as an indoor range. I've "smoked out" my lane when working on developing a competition load using lead bullets (before finding Bayou Bullets). That was with a SP01 shooting 9mm and with a DW PM7 shooting .45acp. So, if you've got dirty loads in 12ga, it's going to be worse faster because you don't have forced ventilation in a house like at an indoor range.

With that said, it's nice seeing people patterning their loads for defensive weapons, but there are 2 other considerations that need to be made. The first is how dirty it is, because smoke plumes are bad indoors and in an intense, high rate of fire situation, it can effectively blind you. The second is muzzle flash, which will temporarily blind you in low light situations. So, when you're doing assessments, look for a good patterning, clean round, with a clean burning, low flash powder. Before anyone asks, Winchester Ranger 2 3/4in 00 Buck is one example. If you look at a reduced recoil load, they tend to fit the bill for low flash, but you still need to check for smoke and accuracy out of your weapon. Sadly, if anyone has a Mossberg Shockwave, don't think you're going to make it...the barrel is short, so unburnt powder and decreased accuracy...but it's a "get off me" and/or breacher style shotgun anyway.

Online s0nspark

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1965
  • System Admin
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #46 on: January 03, 2018, 11:13:57 AM »
Regarding the wave/air volume, I've been on indoor ranges with people shooting shotguns and it was somewhat uncomfortable. I figured it would be more so in a more confined space. Interesting to hear otherwise.

We must have a difference of opinion in what is uncomfortable. We have an indoor range nearby, nothing special, it's two 25yrd ranges separated by cinder block walls and swinging doors (no sealing surfaces). I don't really notice that much of a concussive force inside there when I've been an people were shooting shotguns. Did notice, but wasn't bothered by a guy doing a prelim sight in on his .300WinMag Winchester.

I don't mind shotguns at the indoor range but, man, I hate when people bring in ARs... it goes past being loud and borders on being plain uncomfortable.
"A man's character is his fate."

Offline Mike Russell

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 153
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #47 on: January 03, 2018, 11:21:22 AM »
I don't mind shotguns at the indoor range but, man, I hate when people bring in ARs... it goes past being loud and borders on being plain uncomfortable.

You don't even want to be directly next to me when I fire my 10.5in barrel AR. I constantly remind people that I shoot with to move behind me 2 paces and stay at least 2 paces to either side of me when I fire it. Standing directly even with me, even 3-5ft between us), it will make you feel like someone slapped you in the face and you'll feel it deep in your chest. It just has a flash hider, if I put a compensator on it that would be VERY uncomfortable for those around.  I, however, never even notice it because I'm always behind the controls. ;)

Offline zaxXxon

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 25
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #48 on: January 03, 2018, 11:23:16 AM »
I've never shot a shotgun  in a non ventilated enclosed space.  Is it a situation where you will quickly lose the ability to see due to smoke?  I'd bet just like when using your high beams in the road a high lumen weapon light may be mitigated/nullified due to drywall dust and smoke, or am I blowing smoke?

This is highly dependent on your ammo and the amount of rounds expended, but yes it can be an issue. If running field loads and shooting quickly, you're going to end up with a massive cloud. If you've got a weapon light on, then you'll be practically blind (reflection off the smoke) especially if it's one of the high lumen units.

Your house is ventilated, but not as good as an indoor range. I've "smoked out" my lane when working on developing a competition load using lead bullets (before finding Bayou Bullets). That was with a SP01 shooting 9mm and with a DW PM7 shooting .45acp. So, if you've got dirty loads in 12ga, it's going to be worse faster because you don't have forced ventilation in a house like at an indoor range.

With that said, it's nice seeing people patterning their loads for defensive weapons, but there are 2 other considerations that need to be made. The first is how dirty it is, because smoke plumes are bad indoors and in an intense, high rate of fire situation, it can effectively blind you. The second is muzzle flash, which will temporarily blind you in low light situations. So, when you're doing assessments, look for a good patterning, clean round, with a clean burning, low flash powder. Before anyone asks, Winchester Ranger 2 3/4in 00 Buck is one example. If you look at a reduced recoil load, they tend to fit the bill for low flash, but you still need to check for smoke and accuracy out of your weapon. Sadly, if anyone has a Mossberg Shockwave, don't think you're going to make it...the barrel is short, so unburnt powder and decreased accuracy...but it's a "get off me" and/or breacher style shotgun anyway.
Solid info, thanks!

Sent from my VS995 using Tapatalk


Offline FakeCZName

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 434
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #49 on: January 03, 2018, 02:50:39 PM »
M1A4ME: The point your Dad taught you is something that everyone needs to learn. The grouse were good teachers--if you want to make the first shot--you need to stop shooting before you aim well. You will hit quicker and kill more in the long run if you discipline yourself to not get in a hurry about getting off that first shot. Rather, concentrate on the aim first and shoot only when you know that you are dead-on with the aim/lead. This makes the difference between 1-shot kills and just expending a bunch of ammo, throwing a lot of lead and not hitting anything.

This is true with shotguns, rifles and pistols. And it is true in every situation where you have only a little time to hit your target. Slow down, concentrate your aim and make the first shot count. Better to take the time to hit on the first shot than to miss and then have less time to make the second shot. Hunting is great for teaching how to shoot in high-stress situations.

It taught me the exact lesson your Dad talked to you about; realizing that you have plenty of time to make the first shot without rushing it and making yourself miss. Quail, rabbits verify and confirm what your Dad said.

Also good point about close shots witha shotgun. Blown many a squirrel's and rabbit's head right off. On running rabbit, I wait until he's at least 20 yards away before I even think about pulling the trigger. (I eat the rabbits) So, if there's no thicket nearby, I may let him run 30 yards before I roll him, less shot in him that way, and because there is more spread, better chance to hit him.

I patterned my Browning Auto-5 16 gauge with #1 Buckshot at 30 yards. So I know inside my house, that is one angry swarm of #1 Buckshot that is going to impact the chest (or head) of an intruder. All of the pellets will hit him at that distance. Way more certainly lethal than any handgun--because it penetrates and distrupts a larger area than a .45 ACP. It is simply devastating at close range. And your point about the Turkey hunter who couldn't kill a turkey with 3" 20 GA--well, he can't kill one with a 10 Gauge either. Funny thing about Gobblers is that you do have to hit the head/neck area to kill them! Otherwise, if you hit the body, they may run off and die later.

Have killed deer with Buckshot (12 gauge) and rifled slugs with this Auto-5  16 gauge; so absolutely no doubt about the POI, the spread or the total lethality of this gun at Home Defense ranges.

Still don't comprehend what was said about shotguns being a poor choice for home defense (especially if you remain still and let the intruder come to you). Only conclusion I can draw is that the poster doesn't know much about shotguns and has no experience hunting with shotguns on larger game. I've killed a couple of coyotes with Turkey loads--one #4 lead from 16 gauge and one #5 Hevi-Shot from Benelli 12 Gauge. Hevi-Shot hits like lightning at 45 yards--no matter what you are shooting at--it is absa-freakin'-lutely dead in a fraction of a second. You can almost see its soul blowing out the exit-side!

Let me add something about making that shot.

This has to do with grouse hunting, in the WV mountains where that grouse gets up quick and gets his hind parts behind some trees, over the spoil bank or above the cut (strip mine terms relating to the old abandoned/non-reclaimed strip mines dating back to the 40's and 50's of the previous century).

My dad was talking to me one day and he said, "Have you ever noticed how you can miss that first shot on a grouse, pump the shotgun, get back on him and drop him with the second shot before he gets something between you and him?"  I told him that I'd done that several times over the years.  The he said, "Well, think about this some.  If you've got the time to knock him down with your second shot, why don't you take the time to make sure you get him with that first shot?"

Think about it.  Taking the time to make sure it's a good shot is still quicker than missing the first shot and then hitting with the second shot.  No matter how big the target is or how fast it's moving.

Online Vinny

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 950
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #50 on: January 09, 2018, 09:25:45 PM »
I don't want to argue what's better for HD; Pistol or Shotgun or AR. If the SHTF and I need to defend my home and family; I'll have both a short shotgun and a pistol.

A few facts to consider, some have already been mentioned by others: 

*One round of 00 Buck, even low-recoil, is equivalent to 9 rounds of 32 caliber pistol shots at 1200fps+. 3-4 well placed shells are like 2 full pistol magazine loads of ammo.
*At HD range, even an open (no) choke 00 doesn't spread more than 6-12" diameter, so you've got to aim.
*There are a number of specialized defensive shells like Federal's 00 LE132 that act like a slug up to 10 yards, then the cup shaped plastic shot retainer falls back and the shot spreads and dissipates energy, designed to reduce collateral damage.
*A 1" diameter hole bleeds out quickly.

A Mossberg 590 18.5 barrel with a Talon wrapped Shockwave grip, and a Streamlight TLR-4 laser/light for accurate shots, IMHO is a formidable HD tactical weapon.
Just Say'in.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2018, 09:35:01 PM by Vinny »
"Without Fear, there can be no Courage"
"Carpe Diem"

Offline delphidoc

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 236
  • Larry
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #51 on: January 12, 2018, 12:03:45 AM »
My HD shotgun is this Benelli SuperNova with 18.5" barrel, tube extension, and Walther light on a 45-degree mount. 


Zanderman,
I have that exact gun for home defense. I went to the LGS looking for a Remington 870 or a Mossberg 590 but the salesman showed me the SuperNova, which I hadn't considered before. I like the pistol grip because my wrists have limited range of motion and that grip is much more comfortable to use than the usual grip on a shotgun. I also like the location of the safety and several other features of that gun over the other two.

I keep #1 buck loaded in it because it has adequate penetration and gives more combined cross-section area than 0 or 00:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/home_defense_shotgun_ammo.htm

I have some slugs on the side saddle in the unlikely event I might want to switch from #1 to slug. The SuperNova has a Chamber Empty button that lets you empty the chamber and hand load a shell without emptying the magazine tube.

I don't have a sling on my gun. I've read it can get caught on door knobs, furniture, etc in a close-quarter situation and mess you up.

When the knock on the door said “Alcohol, Tobacco, and Firearms,” naturally I thought it was a delivery…

Offline John A.

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1662
Re: Shotguns for HD (split from What's better in bed?)
« Reply #52 on: January 12, 2018, 09:34:35 AM »
While I wont' say "ANY" gun is ideal for HD, I will say the gun you use the best may be an obvious choice for you to use.  With a few stipulations obviously.

Your house and layout is surely different than mine.  What works best for me, may not for anyone else.  But I'm confident that they will work here.

Anyone who doesn't think that a shotgun can't kill you in short order is delusional.  Though I don't think birdshot is effective.  Buckshot and slugs surely are.

Even drug crazed idiots that don't feel pain will cease to function as soon as their hydraulic pressure bottoms out, which does not take more than a minute or two, if that.

These days, I prefer to defend my house and family with a suppressed firearm.  Some of my rooms are on the small side, and I'm not going to risk my family's hearing because of some drug addicts bad decisions.  That isn't fair to them, especially the youngest ones.  They're not even old enough to understand and follow simple directions when you say cover your ears and close your eyes yet.  They're the most vulnerable, and truth be told, my hearing is down to about 60% without adding more long term trauma and injury to them too.

On top of weapon choice, bullet choice can be just as important.  Entire volumes of books have been written on the subject.  No need to get into all that.  But I also hand load all of my defensive ammo too.

When people ignorant of guns make gun laws, you end up with ignorant gun laws.