Author Topic: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives  (Read 905 times)

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Offline Stan Marsh

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New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« on: February 09, 2018, 04:19:45 PM »
Finally got my Witness!

Great shooter, but with a bit of a problem.  My searches for a solution on the forums were not as fruitful as I would have liked.

I get nose dives in the first few rounds.

First day at the range, after a cleaning, I put a bunch of ball through her of all kinds including steel and aluminum.  Cycled and fired hundreds without a hitch... sort of.

Several times I tested the slide release.  Some of those times I would get nose dives with the round only just touching the bottom of the breach and mostly still in the mag.  This never happened when I racked to chamber and again... she never failed to cycle on her own.

The next day I took some 147 gr Train and Defend.  (Walmart guy let me plunk the 147s in the barrel first.  Good service!)

Same thing happened.  Only this time... about 30 shots in with the Train... a nose dive after 2 successful fires.  And later again after 1 successful fire.

I felt the mag spring was tight and wondered if this could be the culprit.  That or the mag lips.  The last few rounds definitely require some force and especially the 16th in the 16 rd mag.  Also, there appears to be zero taper in the mag lips, front to back.  Should there be?

Last night I did some testing with the flat nosed "Trains."  Slide release only.

16 rounds (full mag) - 7 nose dives out of 8
15 - 3/8
14 - 1/10
13 - 0/10

Then I dropped the mag on its top.  Not proud of that.  Now just a little bit of roughness on top of one of the lips.  I couldn't seem to duplicate the failures after that... or, at least... to that extent.  I was only able to get 1 to nose dive with a full mag out of 10 more attempts.

I feel like there should be more taper, front to back, in the mag lips.  When manually pushing the cartridge forward, the round has a tendency to dip down at a certain point, i.e. when there is less metal underneath it.

I understand that it's a good idea to have several mags, but I think the stock one should work also.  I've modified mags in the past... based on research from guys who've owned the same gun.

Any thoughts?

***EDIT***

I added 3 photos to the bottom of the O.P.  2 shots of the opened up mag and 1 of WWB ball stuck also.  The ball will cycle with successful fires for obvious reasons.  The flat noses sometimes wont.

(Unable to resize photos.  Scroll bar is on the bottom, if necessary)

















And I loaded the mag full of 115 gr WWB round noses and did the slide release test.  First one was a failure.  I felt no need to continue...












.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2018, 12:43:17 AM by Stan Marsh »

Offline Marauderx

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #1 on: February 09, 2018, 06:55:36 PM »
Grab-a-gun has the eaa101900 mags for cheaper... I have found the 101900 to feed well in lots of pistols...

Offline jwc007

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #2 on: February 11, 2018, 04:27:30 PM »
I would replace that magazine.
"Easy is the path to wisdom for those not blinded by ego." - Yoda


For all of those killed by a 9mm: "Get up! You are not dead! You were shot with a useless cartridge!"

Offline Bret

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #3 on: February 11, 2018, 06:21:24 PM »
Finally got my Witness!
Congratulations!

Quote
Several times I tested the slide release.  Some of those times I would get nose dives with the round only just touching the bottom of the breach and mostly still in the mag.  This never happened when I racked to chamber and again... she never failed to cycle on her own.
Some pistols work just fine when using the slide release to release the slide and others don't.  Some manufacturers even recommend against it.  I prefer to think of it as a slide stop instead of a slide release.  I always simply pull back on the rear of the slide in order to release it.  The reason for this is that it is more of a gross motor skill and manipulating a slide stop is more of a fine motor skill.  If you're shooting multiple pistols, then it's much easier to just pull on the rear of the slide.  Plus, it won't cost you any time and you don't have to figure out how far to reach for that slide stop. 

Quote
Any thoughts?
I'd try some 147gr FMJ that has a round nose profile (American Eagle for example) and also try a new magazine, in that order.  You're right.  The one that came with the pistol should work.


Offline DWARREN

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #4 on: February 11, 2018, 08:33:29 PM »
Check to make sure there are no molding burrs on the follower and the inside of the mag is clean.
If new call the importer about it.
SHUT UP AND RELOAD!

Offline briang2ad

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2018, 09:27:42 AM »
Likely mags.  I've heard some TFs come with bad ones.

NO gun should have problems using the slide release.  The SR is the proper way to send the slide home and is proven faster in reloading drills.  "Racking" the slide is wasted motion.  A gun that won't run right using the release is broke and needs to be fixed. 

But, this is likely the mags.  What do the legs on the followers look like?  How are the springs?

Offline Bret

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #6 on: February 12, 2018, 12:50:15 PM »
NO gun should have problems using the slide release.  The SR is the proper way to send the slide home and is proven faster in reloading drills.  "Racking" the slide is wasted motion.  A gun that won't run right using the release is broke and needs to be fixed.
Since the slide release/stop pushes on the follower, it can impact the angle of the cartridge entering the chamber.  If a gun will run reliably using the slide release/stop, then it's obviously no problem to use it.  However, I know that I've read in at least two of my owner's manuals not to use it to release the slide.  My Kahr CM40 is one that I can think of off the top of my head.  If you're training primarily with one gun and it is proven to chamber reliably using the slide release/stop, then by all means use it if you'd like to do so.  On the other hand, if you're like me and use multiple different firearms, you'll likely find that they are in slightly different locations.  Having muscle memory for the locations on many different firearms isn't realistic.  Finally, it is not slower to use the gross motor skill of pulling back slightly on the rear of the slide, it's just different.  The key is training whatever you decide to do.

It may just be that the combination of this gun, using the slide release/stop, the magazine and the flat nose 147gr FMJ results in nose dives.  If the problem does not happen when releasing the slide by pulling on the rear of the slide (aka sling shot method), then the simple solution is to use different ammo or use the sling shot method.  Also, this problem may not really be a nose dive.  The cartridge may be feeding forward so that the flat tip of the bullet gets stuck on the bottom of the feed ramp.  The rear of the cartridge would then pop up with the front remaining down.  It would then look like it nose dived, but in fact it didn't. 

Stan, when you run in to these sorts of problems, it is a pain.  However, I've found that I always end up learning something while attempting to find a solution.  Change one variable at a time and let us know what you find out.  Good luck.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 01:18:28 PM by Bret »

Offline Stan Marsh

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #7 on: February 12, 2018, 02:19:49 PM »
Thanks for all the informative replies!

A couple of important items of note from the O.P…

1.  The slide release issue occurred the first day with standard ball of about a half dozen types.  Pretty sure they were all 115 gr.  However, she cycled on her own just fine.

2.  On range day 2, the 147 gr flat nose failed to feed after fire on 2 separate occasions.

So this problem is not confined to the slide release.  I just used that method in my testing on day 3.

It seems pretty clear to me that the rounds are nose diving every time; at least the top few.  The ball cycled fine after fire for obvious reasons.

The general consensus appears to be pointing to the mag.  I have not taken it apart yet.  They didn't make it easy for me.  But I don't see how it could be anything but the spring or the lips.  Since the problem hasn't occurred after several rounds are out of the mag, it seems like the spring is too strong.  I can tell you that 16th round takes some serious effort.  And I am not a delicate man.

Offline Bret

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #8 on: February 12, 2018, 05:01:30 PM »
It seems pretty clear to me that the rounds are nose diving every time; at least the top few.
If the magazine spring is generating too much upward force, it can cause the cycling problems.  I have a Steyr M40 that had all sorts of feeding and ejection issues with the factory supplied 10rd magazines.  When the AWB expired in 2004, I purchased a couple of 12rd factory magazines.  I immediately noticed that both the 10rd and 12rd magazines had the same spring even though the spring in the 10rd magazine operated over a much shorter range.  The pistol runs 100% with the 12rd magazines.

If you're going to try another magazine, then I'd suggest getting a Mec-Gar.  They are great and the quality is better than the factory Tanfoglio magazine.  Plus, if you buy another factory magazine, then you might just end up with the same problem if it's made the same.
http://gregcotellc.com/cart/eaa-witness-mecgar-magazines-c-134/eaa-witnesstanfoglio-sf-springfield-p9-9mm-17-rd-mgwit9sfafc-p-1087.html

Offline Stan Marsh

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #9 on: February 12, 2018, 06:07:13 PM »
I added 3 photos to the bottom of the O.P.  2 shots of the opened up mag and another of the chamber.

I loaded the mag full of 115 gr WWB round noses and tested with the slide release.  First attempt was a failure.  I felt no need to keep going.

The ball cycled 100% following successful fires for obvious reasons.  The flat noses sometimes won’t.

Still... as some have stated... it's not right that the rounds won't always feed by simply releasing the slide rather than manually racking.

Offline Stan Marsh

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #10 on: February 12, 2018, 06:16:41 PM »
If the magazine spring is generating too much upward force, it can cause the cycling problems.  I have a Steyr M40 that had all sorts of feeding and ejection issues with the factory supplied 10rd magazines.  When the AWB expired in 2004, I purchased a couple of 12rd factory magazines.  I immediately noticed that both the 10rd and 12rd magazines had the same spring even though the spring in the 10rd magazine operated over a much shorter range.  The pistol runs 100% with the 12rd magazines.

If you're going to try another magazine, then I'd suggest getting a Mec-Gar.  They are great and the quality is better than the factory Tanfoglio magazine.  Plus, if you buy another factory magazine, then you might just end up with the same problem if it's made the same.
http://gregcotellc.com/cart/eaa-witness-mecgar-magazines-c-134/eaa-witnesstanfoglio-sf-springfield-p9-9mm-17-rd-mgwit9sfafc-p-1087.html

Thanks, Bret!  Yeah, the spring as the culprit just seems logical to me; especially given that the problem goes away once the mag has just 2 or 3 fewer rounds.  It's like the spring is pushing so hard against the feed lips that they'd rather hold on tight rather than let the round go.

The only problem I have with your new mag suggestion is... I had read in the past that Mec-Gar makes the very mag that came with the pistol.  And this is restated on the webpage you linked here.  I'd feel a lot more comfortable if this weren't the case.

Here's a quote from the webpage...

"...Mec-Gar is now the OEM supplier of the Tanfoglio magazines and these magazines are Mec-Gar's aftermarket version of the factory magazine that they make..."

That said, I'm probably going to pick one of these up and try it.  And maybe get some CZ mags, as well.

Kinda' had a hankerin' for this one.  I believe jwc007 has one for his SAR.  Maybe a witness, as well.  I don't recall for sure... https://gun.deals/search/apachesolr_search/MGCZ7519AFC?is_firearms_wikiarms=0
« Last Edit: February 12, 2018, 06:37:52 PM by Stan Marsh »

Offline Bret

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #11 on: February 12, 2018, 07:18:21 PM »
Stan, post pictures of the rear and sides of the magazine and we'll be able to tell you for sure.  Mec-Gar magazines are pretty easy to identify.

Offline Stan Marsh

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2018, 12:35:11 AM »
Stan, post pictures of the rear and sides of the magazine and we'll be able to tell you for sure.  Mec-Gar magazines are pretty easy to identify.

Hey Bret,

Mag shots posted in the O.P.

Offline Bret

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2018, 09:13:36 AM »
That's not a Mec-Gar manufactured magazine.  It's the same that came with my small frame full sized Tanfoglio pistols.  I'm assuming they're made by Tanfoglio, but I don't know for sure.

Offline Stan Marsh

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Re: New Witness P-S - Nose Dives
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2018, 02:41:16 PM »
Roger that, Bret.  Thanks!

Just found this review for the Mec-Gar you suggested on another retailer site...

"This mag works perfectly for my Tanfoglio Witness. Feeds flawlessly. No misfeeds, unlike the factory mag that came with the gun. The Tanfoglio factory mag is terrible and jams, nosedives, & fails to feed constantly. This Mec Gar mag fixed all that and feeds all 115 to 147 grain ammunition perfectly with no hiccups at all!"


At least I appear to be doing better than THIS poor guy!

So my research indicates that any CZ75B mag will work, specifically the 17 and 19 rounders.

They are the...

MGCZ7517AFC and
MGCZ7519AFC

Now there was a little chatter here and there about whether they will lock the slide back.  Darink300zx reports they work fine.  Can you or anyone else confirm this?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2018, 02:45:50 PM by Stan Marsh »