Author Topic: CZ SP01 modified in single action only can be used in IDPS ESP division?  (Read 689 times)

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Offline colt45acp

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I've fairly recently started to shoot  in IDPA.
I used to shoot a CZ SP01  until I decided to switch to the GLOCK 34 Gen 4 I'm using now, as the double & single action of the CZ to me was a bit of a pain in the neck, and I wasn't very good at the transition.
Recently  I've found an oldish CZ SP01 modified from double-single action to single action only.
I wonder if I can use it in IDPA ESP Division.   

Thanks a lot for your reply.
Sergio

Learning is impossible without humility.

Offline Bwanag

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Yes, I have  been shooting a CZ SP01 modified in single action in ESP in our local matches.

Offline SP01bob

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Yup, mastering the double action is a lot of work. I have been dealing with it myself. But having Cajun install a trigger package helps a ton, then its just a matter of trigger prep. I'm buying a 75B SAO to play with, see how I like it, and go from there. I'll tell ya, I had a G34, and switched to the SP01 which in my opinion offers a much better trigger than the stock Glock trigger.

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Offline MoRivera

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I wondered about this myself, and I was under the impression that you can use a) a manual-safetied 75/SP01 starting cocked-n'-locked for ESP, or b) an actual CZ 75B SAO from the factory.  But that a DA/SA gun converted/modded to a SAO is NOT legal....especially if the actual DA trigger that it comes stock with is somehow modded or pinned/set-screwed to deactivate the DA capability.

And there's that grey area in that CZ does make a SAO CZ75B, but it is not an SP01 with rail, and it clearly says the 'SAO' model designation on the slide.  I guess in local matches they'd mostly be fine with it, but bigger more 'official' ones, would this be an issue?  Even if the SAO trigger and hammer were OEM CZ-made parts.  I would also like some more clarity on this.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Quote from: MoRivera
... But that a DA/SA gun converted/modded to a SAO is NOT legal....especially if the actual DA trigger that it comes stock with is somehow modded or pinned/set-screwed to deactivate the DA capability.

I was under the impression that in the ENHANCED service pistol division, as long as the gun still fit in the box and you met the caliber and magazine limits, you were generally OK.   (That's a way over-simplified synopsis, but its more true than not.)

It's been a while since I've shot IDPA, but I have maintained my membership -- and I just did a quick read of the IDPA 2017 Rule Book (but not any of the more recent updates).  That rule book says NOTHING about a DA/SA gun being converted to SAO being illegal.  Maybe I just missed it?

There is an inclusive list of modifications that ARE allowed, and a smaller list of modifications that are NOT allowed -- only three are mentioned -- and converting a gun from DA/SA to SAO isn't addressed in either of the lists.  (Page 28 - 29.)   The fact that action work is allowed to enhance trigger pull, that trigger position (and pull length) may be changed, and that trigger stops are allowed, seem to suggest that the conversion from DA/SA to SAO is either OK or irrelevant.  (The only significant difference between a DA/SA CZ and a SAO, in terms of how the internal mechanism works is that the disconnector is removed in the SAO gun.) 

The IDPA Rule Book does NOT address whether modifications can be made to a given model or style of pistol; it only address the features of the gun must have (or not have) when that handgun is used in a given DIVISION.   

I've never seen a DA/SA > SAO conversion addressed at a match, at a SAFETY OFFICER's CLASS, nor have I read that it's illegal.  If someone HAS  a definitive answer, please let us know!!
« Last Edit: May 22, 2018, 07:36:08 PM by Walt Sherrill »

Offline MoRivera

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If that is the case, then I may shoot a SAO-converted SP01 in ESP as well.  Cool.  That will depend on whether or not I keep my Shadow 2 DA/SA for USPSA Production.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2018, 12:48:50 AM by MoRivera »

Offline 1SOW

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Just an option:  Are your problems with shooting a DA/SA 75 related to trigger pull weight differences or length of pull changes on the draw?
After market upgrades can make both pulls  much lighter and shorter with a reset and break better than the Glock.  The greatly improved trigger makes it much easier to learn DA/SA trigger handling.
This will let shoot IDPA OR USPSA in any class.

Offline colt45acp

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FWIK   there is no modification rule against changing the trigger in ESP, but I'd like to be sure about it.
Sergio

Learning is impossible without humility.

Offline Raven45

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Google is your friend.  Look up "IDPA" on the internet.  All the current IDPA rules, including all the specifics about equipment requirements for each division are readily available.

Offline MoRivera

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There used to be some odd rules a few years back about a CZ Having to be SSP legal to be used in ESP, and some restrictions about the railed dustcover and the sight cut.  That's what I had in mind, but those have loosened up recently to allow SP01's and Shadows in SSP, and apparently SAO-converted ones in ESP.

Offline Walt Sherrill

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Quote from: MoRivera
There used to be some odd rules a few years back about a CZ Having to be SSP legal to be used in ESP, and some restrictions about the railed dustcover and the sight cut.  That's what I had in mind, but those have loosened up recently to allow SP01's and Shadows in SSP, and apparently SAO-converted ones in ESP.

You may be right, but I don't remember ever reading about or dealing with that type of limitation or rule for ESP guns.  (I shot ESP myself pretty regularly.)

While many SSP guns COULD (and CAN) be used in the ESP division, I don't think any sort of reverse SSP-compatibility was ever a requirement for an ESP weapon.   The things that make a gun very ESP friendly are mostly modifications that would keep that gun ESP gun OUT of the SSP division.   Simple things like SAO would keep some ESP guns out of SSP.  I don't think rails were ever an issue.

Note:  I have a Lionheart LH9, which is a slightly updated version of the Daewoo DP-51.  Both of these guns havew has a unique trigger/hammer function which lets you start from cocked (and locked, but locked isn't required) with the hammer down.  I wonder if anyone has asked about the legality of that method of start/carry, or tested it in a match.

All this said, I don't have any of the old IDPA Rule Books, so you MAY be correct.   Maybe someone else here has copies.   

Offline MoRivera

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Quote from: MoRivera
There used to be some odd rules a few years back about a CZ Having to be SSP legal to be used in ESP, and some restrictions about the railed dustcover and the sight cut.  That's what I had in mind, but those have loosened up recently to allow SP01's and Shadows in SSP, and apparently SAO-converted ones in ESP.

You may be right, but I don't remember ever reading about or dealing with that type of limitation or rule for ESP guns.  (I shot ESP myself pretty regularly.)

While many SSP guns COULD (and CAN) be used in the ESP division, I don't think any sort of reverse SSP-compatibility was ever a requirement for an ESP weapon.   The things that make a gun very ESP friendly are mostly modifications that would keep that gun ESP gun OUT of the SSP division.   Simple things like SAO would keep some ESP guns out of SSP.  I don't think rails were ever an issue.

Note:  I have a Lionheart LH9, which is a slightly updated version of the Daewoo DP-51.  Both of these guns havew has a unique trigger/hammer function which lets you start from cocked (and locked, but locked isn't required) with the hammer down.  I wonder if anyone has asked about the legality of that method of start/carry, or tested it in a match.

All this said, I don't have any of the old IDPA Rule Books, so you MAY be correct.   Maybe someone else here has copies.

I know, it was a weird sort of paradox of a rule (you look up conversations about the SP01 from like 2010-2014 there's talk of it), but from the looks of it it doesn't apply anymore as long as you make weight.  I'll be shooting my Shadow this weekend at a local IDPA match.  I shoot my Sig P226 Legion SAO in ESP (had to take the right side ambitions safety lever down to fit 'the box'), and might try cocked n' locked with the Shadow as well.

 

anything