Author Topic: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega  (Read 623 times)

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Offline Delavan

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My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« on: May 06, 2018, 10:07:35 PM »
Good day,

I haven't kept a picture of my targets. Will do that next time. I bought this 75B from friend that got it new. We shot about 500 rounds thru it together before he sold it to me.
Usually we were shooting it at 10m, 15m, that sort of deal. I was doing decent, better than him.

 I brought it to the range this week-end, now that it is mine. I brought my wife with me, she wanted to shoot it (her first time ever!). Anyway, I setup 4 targets at 7 meters.
Just as a warm up. My wife was doing what first time pistols shooters do. Normal.  But for me, I was shooting low and left, even if I lined up the sights half-decent.

What is wrong? The pistol is the regular iron sight, fixed rear sight 75B. Is it an indication of jerking the trigger? always low and left.

anything I can do to improve my stability? I have snap caps...do I need to spend time dry firing in my living room?
For arms strenght and stability, anythign you guys recommend?

Must sound like funny questions...I'm a rifle guy. Not much experience with handguns yet.

Also, what should be my learning routine in term of distance, positions, etc?
Help!

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #1 on: May 06, 2018, 10:40:41 PM »
I don't think rifle and pistol shooting (if shooting for small groups) is much different.

You have to align the front and rear sights with each other and then align the front sight with the target - while keeping the front and rear sights aligned with each other.

You need to breathe.  I inhale, exhale, if the sights are lined up I squeeze the trigger gently.  If the sights aren't lined up I may take another breath, or work a little harder to get the sights/target aligned.  But, if you try holding to long (breath and handgun) you will just wobble worse and your eyes won't focus as well.

You only need the last digit of your trigger finger on the trigger.  I use the spot from just past the middle an align it on the right side of the trigger.

You need a firm grip on the pistol.  If it moves around in your hand it can change where the next bullet impacts.

Do you have some snap caps?  You can do "ball & dummy" drills if you have some snapcaps.  Let your wife load the magazine with 4 rounds of 9MM and 1 snap cap (she determines the order of live rounds to where the snap cap goes).  Load the magazine and shoot your group.  You'll know, when the snap cap is chambered, if you are jerking (or otherwise messing up the trigger pull) when you drop the hammer on the snap cap.

If you get tired/winded/blurry vision, put the pistol on safe and lay it on the bench and take a breather.  No use trying to shoot a nice group if the pistol sights are wavering all around on the target when you know you can hold it tighter.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Online rhart

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #2 on: May 07, 2018, 01:08:55 AM »
I'm guessing you are right handed? If so, shooting low left is indicative of what's called a 'flinch.' During a flinch, your mind/body reacts to the anticipation of recoil by pushing the gun forward and down to the left for a right hander - forward and down and to the right for a left hander. Pretty much everyone develops a flinch at some point so don't feel bad. I developed a bad flinch a couple of years ago when I tried to power through arthritic finger pain and I am still struggling with the flinch even though the discomfort is almost gone now - nothing like acute pain everytime the gun goes off to train a Pavlovian flinch into your technique.

Most recommend doing lots of dry fire to train the flinch away, but I can dry fire all day long without flinching and then go to the range and catch myself flinching after a few rounds. Don't get me wrong, dry firing is great and will probably train your flinch away by itself. I believe mental preparation is my best bet - visualizing myself just letting the gun do what it's going to do during firing instead of trying to prevent muzzle flip completely by strong arming the gun into not recoiling (not causing pain in my hand).

The technique that M1A4me outlined will tell if you've got a flinch and if you video the exercise several times it will tell you how bad it is - although the targets will tell that too. My flinch was so bad I was shooting 18" low and 8-10" left on IPSC targets from 7 yards away at times. My flinch seemed to come not from trigger pull, but from dropping my shoulders and leaning forward just as I was about to shoot - which I discovered by hitting an empty chamber during a string of shots several different times.

The 'bill drill' type of shooting really brings out my flinch at times, which indicates to me that it is deep in my subconscious. At 6-7 yards, I will usually have all the shots pretty much in a group around my aim point on the target which is the upper portion of the "A Zone.'  As I try to speed up I start to shoot lower and lower and then low and left occasionally. My intentional effort to "over control" the muzzle flip when shooting fast strings induces my body to fight too hard against the gun's recoil - if that makes any sense. I have to accept the fact that I can't completely stop the pistol from recoiling - I can only manage it through proper grip and stance so that it recoils the same amount each time and returns to the same aiming point in my hands each time before squeezing the trigger again. Basically, it's all in my head...
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline Delavan

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #3 on: May 07, 2018, 08:04:19 AM »
Many thanks both M1A4ME & rhart!

Yes I'm a right-handed shooter. I'll try to go back to the range this week after work. Lucky for me, its 10 minutes from home. I'll try to take my time, I'm a little bit of a perfectionist and if I don't well fast, I usually get pissy. Time to concentrate, learn the techniques, etc. Even with rifles, knowing that I don't hunt and that I own firearms for only 4-5 years shooting casually, I never put enough effort into it I guess.

I'll definitively report back soon!

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #4 on: May 07, 2018, 09:01:08 AM »
That dry firing, if done correctly, will also help build up your arms/hands/wrists so you can hold the pistol firmly longer and hold it up aimed at the target longer and hold it with less wobbling.

It's exercise.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Jiva

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2018, 09:52:54 AM »
Please consider shooting at 3m, 5m, and 7m.
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Offline 1SOW

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #6 on: May 07, 2018, 03:28:01 PM »
What they both said above + GRIP.strength and consistency.
The two hand "thumbs forward" high on the grip works for most action shooters.  Bullseye shooters are a different sport.  See JoeL's threads if that's your preference.

For most action/range shooters ,  the firm weak hand grip  supports the pistol and the thumb and three fingers of the strong hand adds to the grip strength. The trigger finger has to move the same way every shot. Hand size may effect where your trigger finger rests on the trigger.  If the trigger finger tenses up, then it may lead to pushing the pistol left.  Fighting the recoil muzzle flip leads to shooting lower. 
Practice,, dry fire, practice and practic some more.
It's MUCH harder to unlearn a bad habit than it is to get it right the first time.

All this sounds like hard work.  Make sure you keep the FUN in the sport.

All this from just a fair shooter,  but I've been told and shown what works from some really good shooters.

 

Offline Delavan

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #7 on: May 07, 2018, 10:24:46 PM »
I'll definitely consider all insight and suggestions here, I joined this forum to learn and enjoy my CZ. I'll try to indoctrinate my wife too, to secure further funding lol.

I shot the old Browning HP in training, but those oldies aren't giving me a warm & fuzzy...

Offline DWARREN

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #8 on: May 08, 2018, 02:37:06 AM »
Right handed and shooting low/left is usually pushing the trigger left/low.
Try more finger on the trigger.
Also different types/brands of ammo can change POI.
SHUT UP AND RELOAD!

Offline Delavan

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2018, 11:00:57 PM »
I went for another round of shooting.
I did dry-fire the pistol using snap caps. Also watched a few vids about shooter position from Jerry Miculek and one from Ron Leatham (don't aim).
I tried to dry-fire, mostly is single action mode, to drop the hammer without moving the pistol.

I only brought 50 rounds (I know its weak) and fired at 2 targets from 5 meters.
Nothing to brag about, but I'm not as "low & left" as I was before. I mean its still bad, low and left, but not as bad as before.


This is an improvement. I have an issue with a sight picture. Maybe its only me, but trying to line up the 3 dots (and line up the rear sights with front post heights) is hard and I shoot a little low. If I try to have the front dot slightly higher, then I can bulls-eye.

I'm still a little excited about owning the gun and I don't take much time aiming. I'm making noise! amateurish too. Like Jerry Miculek would say, if you can't reproduce its called inconsistency!

https://ibb.co/f97f5d

40 rounds in the left one, 10 rounds in the right one. My right target is always the one I focus on last (final product), but still I get to that I don't spend much time to put my 100% into it. Novelty factor, but ammo isn't free and I'll try to smarten up a little!
« Last Edit: May 16, 2018, 11:31:10 PM by Delavan »

Offline 1SOW

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2018, 12:53:36 AM »
You might try another way to line up your sights:
DON'T try to line up 3 dots and a point of aim on the target,  two at the rear sight with one at the front sight,  forget the dots. Don't see the dots. :o.  A human eye cannot focus at multiple distances at the same time.

First look at the target point of aim.  Bring the  "top" of the front sight up to that Point of Aim.  Then just notice the light bars on each side of the front sight are equal sizes.  That is on target right and left. The top of the front sight on the POA.  Next, Look to see that the "top" of the rear sight is level with the "top" of the front sight.  Now just look at the top of the front sight still on the POA.
If you look at the exact target spot first and then do as said above and focus on the front sight your dominant eye will keep you on target.
Now pull the trigger steadily back until the hammer drops moving that front sight as little as possible.

DON'T look for the bullet hole!    Immediately Repeat the process and drop the hammer. DON'T see the bullet hole.  Repeat one more time. 

Now check your group size.  1.  It may be low but that doesn't matter.  2.  The group  should be centered on  or above the P.O.A.
That's from having the light bars equal  on both sides of the front sight.  Having the top of the rear sight even with the top of the front sight insures the verticle spread is the same.

All this can be done by "just focussing on the front sight" after it gets to the "small" target POA.  If this done as soon as the front sight is on a very small POA,  your group size will shrink with a good trigger pull.

Three dot sights aren't really designed for precise shooting.  They are designed for FAST center mass shooting.
The dots are not at the top of the sights,  and trying out the method above will group low depending on how the factory aligned the dots.  Trying to focus at three different distances isn't possible.  Changing your focus from one to the other  to the target takes more time and is less precise.

This is just something to try out your pistol and your trigger pull.

Hope this makes sense and helps .
 



Offline M1A4ME

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2018, 08:29:02 AM »
Think about what 1SOW just wrote.

Looking for the bullet holes (I've done it, too) does a couple bad things to you.  One is it breaks your concentration from the sights/target/trigger pull.  The second is that it can start making you think about how well (or how poorly) you are doing and that will affect your concentration, too.

It can also cause another issue.  There's are reasons why your group isn't as small as you'd like.  So, some bullet holes will not be where you want them to be.  It's a mistake, while shooting that group, to start aiming somewhere else on the target in an attempt to move the bullet holes to where you want them.  My wife does that.  If she shoots and makes a bullet hole low left, she'll aim high right in an attempt to move the bullet.  I get on to year about it and she'll stop, then I'll catch her doing it again.

Aim at the same spot every time.  If the group is small - great.  If not - continue working on your technique, your ammo selection, your pistols mechanics, till the groups are as small as you'd like.  Some pistols shoot some brands/bullet weights better than others (my new P01 doesn't shoot Winchester white box 115 grain FMJ for beans.  It shoots Federal 115 grain FMJ much better.)  Shop around.  Buy different brands, different bullet weights, different bullet types/profiles.  You may find some loads that work/shoot better in your pistol.  Your technique can always improve through training and practice.  Sometimes its your pistol.  Not all pistols are created equal.  My CZ P01 Omega doesn't shoot anywhere near as small groups as my CZ Compact with a steel frame (the one that looks like a P01).  I've worked on the steel framed Compact and installed a few Cajun Gun Works parts as well as polishing some of the moving parts inside.  On the other hand, my wife's CZ75 Compact shoots small groups and it's pretty much stock inside the pistol.
Better to have it and not need it, than to need it and not have it.  So, if you see me walking the dogs with my SIG 556R, its okay.

Offline Jiva

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2018, 08:48:10 AM »
You need to find a mentor. Take a class or attend a clinic in your area. Getting advice from forums is well and good but if you really want to get a good foundation you need coaching from someone you trust, admire, and whose advice you will follow to the letter. Once again I will ask, what are your goals for shooting? In other words, ask yourself why do you own a firearm and what do you want to do with it. Once you establish that, find a person in your area that can do that and ask for help. If you can't find that person, your probably not looking hard enough or in the right places.

Good luck and enjoy the journey :D
75 P-01 Compact 99041
75 D PCR Compact
75 SP-01 Tactical 9mm
612 HD
452 2E ZKM Lux .22LR

Offline Delavan

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2018, 09:20:29 PM »
Thanks 1SOW, M1A4ME & Jiva.

I'll definitely consider all these good tips. Is it possible (or just an illusion), that I need to keep the top of the front sight higher that the top of the rear sight? Maybe an optical illusion. But when I did try to keep it higher, I bulls-eyed. Not that the middle of the target is the goal. Tight grouping is what I'm looking at.

Yes I look at bullet holes, so I try to adjust. Most likely a very poor strategy, that prevent me to reach some level of consistency. Will try to avoid looking. Jeez do I need to become a Jedi? Ah Ah, I'm new to pistols.

A mentor would work. although I don't know of many people that own pistols in my Area (I'm canadian, so pistols are "restricted" status, not that too common). My club probably has lots or people that could help, and clinics I could register to...

I've shot both BLAZER (Made by CCI) 115 gr and some Sellier & Belliot 115gr...

I think my goal is partly reached :owning a pistol. Knowing that it took me a course, 3 months of waiting (all the record checks and processes, inclusing reference checks) and the purchase/transfer.

Another goal: Own a CZ, which is obvious. I like famous & reliable firearms. I wanted that CZ75 since Im a little kid (like 30 years+).

Now, learn how to be consistent and shoot decent groups within pistol range...what is it? 25 Meters max?

Online rhart

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Re: My first time at the range with my new to me CZ-75B Omega
« Reply #14 on: May 18, 2018, 07:33:11 AM »
Thanks 1SOW, M1A4ME & Jiva.

I'll definitely consider all these good tips. Is it possible (or just an illusion), that I need to keep the top of the front sight higher that the top of the rear sight? Maybe an optical illusion. But when I did try to keep it higher, I bulls-eyed. Not that the middle of the target is the goal. Tight grouping is what I'm looking at.

Yes I look at bullet holes, so I try to adjust. Most likely a very poor strategy, that prevent me to reach some level of consistency. Will try to avoid looking. Jeez do I need to become a Jedi? Ah Ah, I'm new to pistols.

A mentor would work. although I don't know of many people that own pistols in my Area (I'm canadian, so pistols are "restricted" status, not that too common). My club probably has lots or people that could help, and clinics I could register to...

I've shot both BLAZER (Made by CCI) 115 gr and some Sellier & Belliot 115gr...

I think my goal is partly reached :owning a pistol. Knowing that it took me a course, 3 months of waiting (all the record checks and processes, inclusing reference checks) and the purchase/transfer.

Another goal: Own a CZ, which is obvious. I like famous & reliable firearms. I wanted that CZ75 since Im a little kid (like 30 years+).

Now, learn how to be consistent and shoot decent groups within pistol range...what is it? 25 Meters max?

May be that your front sight needs to be changed. If you're absolutely certain that the gun always shoots low when the sights are properly aligned (let someone else shoot it to verify) then the front sight is likely too tall. Either get a shorter front sight or if you're brave you can file the front sight down.
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

 

anything