Author Topic: Do you count your shots ?  (Read 744 times)

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Offline dbarn

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #15 on: June 04, 2018, 09:18:41 AM »
In competition with a Shadow 2, I've often wondered how folks get away with a high grip hold and such a protruding slide stop. There is no doubt that if you look closely they are riding the slide stop and must know where the mag changes are, or are counting their rounds.

Fine if you are in a match and know in advance where the mag changes are. In a real life SHTF scenario however I'll take slide lock back any day. Still don't understand why CZ does not make a less protruding slide stop for the S2-P-01 like the Rami for the SP-01.

Offline puddintame

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #16 on: June 04, 2018, 02:57:23 PM »
I put 6 targets 6" diameter on a large piece of white cardboard. I load 10 rnds only. and always count my shots. I fire 2 mags on each target for a total of 120 per cardboard target. then count my missed shots. this way I don't have to stop everyone as often to change targets out

Offline rhart

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #17 on: June 04, 2018, 04:58:49 PM »
In competition with a Shadow 2, I've often wondered how folks get away with a high grip hold and such a protruding slide stop. There is no doubt that if you look closely they are riding the slide stop and must know where the mag changes are, or are counting their rounds.

Fine if you are in a match and know in advance where the mag changes are. In a real life SHTF scenario however I'll take slide lock back any day. Still don't understand why CZ does not make a less protruding slide stop for the S2-P-01 like the Rami for the SP-01.

I'm using a rami slide stop on my S2 and it still won't lock back with my high grip, but it doesn't dig into my hand like stock does.
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline rhart

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #18 on: June 04, 2018, 06:10:30 PM »


The human mind under the influence of adrenalin can slow down time and process more information than you might think it can.

I believe that to be the case in the sense that your survival instincts and awareness become hyper-focused on what's important for survival moment-by-moment during an up close and personal 'flight or fight' experience.  Adrenaline promotes hyper-speed switching of the mind's focus between primary survival concerns of the moment. However, when you're trying to survive a sudden life threatening encounter, the relevance of how many rounds remain in your magazine only achieves primacy over other momentary life or death concerns in the very moment one realizes the gun ran dry.
During an 'adrenaline dump,' some primary brain structures involved in survival are activated. This “inferior” brain dictates what to do in order to survive (it takes over). So, the other parts of the brain that are consuming unnecessary “fuel” are inhibited to save resources for our primary evolutionary function, which is survival. So, you may be more efficient to run or to fight but less able to have superior judgment during an adrenaline rush.
It's why most people don't remember how many shots they fired in a self defense situation and usually underestimate the amount of rounds they actually fired. Police sometimes become suspicious when a 'defender' can tell them exactly how many rounds they fired because it can mean they were not really in fear for their life (so if you have super-human skills at round counting under survival duress, you may want to keep it to yourself in certain circumstances).
It's one thing to be able to count rounds under the stress of a competition and quite another to be able to count rounds during an unexpected, sudden, vicious, up close, overwhelmingly violent, and personally life-threatening encounter that results in an 'adrenaline dump' summoning your primal mind to the forefront. This of course suggests that different levels of adrenaline dumps exist just as there are different levels of stress for different experiences. I suspect that an up close surprise gunfight or knife fight or similar extreme experience precipitates a maximim dose of adrenaline and a complete takeover by the survival-focused primal mind.

« Last Edit: June 04, 2018, 06:31:03 PM by rhart »
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Online 1SOW

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #19 on: June 04, 2018, 06:52:00 PM »
The human mind can't effectively focus on two tasks at once - at least mine can't. Scientists say that we may think we are multi-tasking, but we really are switching focus back and forth between tasks.
Instead of counting rounds during a match, I rehearse in my mind where my reloads will be - in production that's generally after every four IPSC targets (8 rounds) or after 6-8 steel targets. If I have to shoot more than twice at a target, I know I have 3 rounds to account for that in my gun in production. This method frees my mind up to focus on my stage plan. I have at least 5 mags - 1 in the gun and 4 on my belt - which gives me plenty of buffer on most stages. In limited with 18 round mags, I usually reload after 8 two-shot targets. Better to reload early a time or two than to run dry and an extra mag helps in that regard.
As my IPSC/USPSA mentor told me, if you're moving between target arrays you need to be reloading.

Exactly.  If I have make-up shots,  I reload earlier than planned.  As rhart said,  if you're moving reload.

Offline recoilguy

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2018, 09:36:02 AM »
If your moving reload...….truer words baby...…. truer words.

limited shooters in competition have the advantage of not having to think about it and where they will be the one mag drop they make.

I understand the go to slide stop and realize you are out of bullets when you are standing still and making holes in paper.

I have seen so many people get to slide stop and not realize they are until they jerk the trigger and the gun doesn't go bang. That is a different kind of practice then I want to do. I only try to go to slide stop on my last shot if I can plan that well. I never even go to slide stop when I am making holes in paper (on purpose). I will always leave a bullet or two behind or on the ground as opposed to press my trigger to have my gun not fire.

RCG
........Its that you shoot!

Offline dbarn

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #21 on: June 05, 2018, 11:59:03 AM »
In competition with a Shadow 2, I've often wondered how folks get away with a high grip hold and such a protruding slide stop. There is no doubt that if you look closely they are riding the slide stop and must know where the mag changes are, or are counting their rounds.

Fine if you are in a match and know in advance where the mag changes are. In a real life SHTF scenario however I'll take slide lock back any day. Still don't understand why CZ does not make a less protruding slide stop for the S2-P-01 like the Rami for the SP-01.

I'm using a rami slide stop on my S2 and it still won't lock back with my high grip, but it doesn't dig into my hand like stock does.

I did not think the Rami was long enough for the S2 or P-01 as they use the same longer slide stop due to the wider frame? I'm using the Bob Vogel grip on my SP-01 and with the Rami slide stop getting perfect slide lock. No way with the stock one.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 12:04:34 PM by dbarn »

Offline rhart

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #22 on: June 05, 2018, 03:24:38 PM »
In competition with a Shadow 2, I've often wondered how folks get away with a high grip hold and such a protruding slide stop. There is no doubt that if you look closely they are riding the slide stop and must know where the mag changes are, or are counting their rounds.

Fine if you are in a match and know in advance where the mag changes are. In a real life SHTF scenario however I'll take slide lock back any day. Still don't understand why CZ does not make a less protruding slide stop for the S2-P-01 like the Rami for the SP-01.

I'm using a rami slide stop on my S2 and it still won't lock back with my high grip, but it doesn't dig into my hand like stock does.

I did not think the Rami was long enough for the S2 or P-01 as they use the same longer slide stop due to the wider frame? I'm using the Bob Vogel grip on my SP-01 and with the Rami slide stop getting perfect slide lock. No way with the stock one.

I'm using the Vogel grip as well and my thumb, where the thumb meets the palm at the thumb joint, rides the slide stop and prevents slide lock most of the time. Maybe my support hand grip is higher than some...
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #23 on: June 05, 2018, 08:12:35 PM »
Anyone competing counts it out before they start the stage.  That's a different scenario.  If you have to take unexpected extra shots on target, you make the adjustment on your planned mag change on the fly. 

But count rounds?  You're hurting your training if you count rounds.

Your mantra for training any skill should be "I practice these things so that I may forget them."  That may be Bruce Lee who said that or something similar.  Counting rounds is trying to remain conscious of what you're doing when you need to act almost unconsciously.

Conscious thought takes time. Conscious thought is language - - it's speaking inside your head -  and your body is capable of acting with far greater speed and skill when that conscious thought is minimized. Conscious thought is a waste of time when trying to employ a skill at speed.

If you're counting rounds in a defensive scenario, OR practicing for a defensive scenario, you're effectively slowing yourself down. You're hurting your practice, and distracting yourself from the task at hand: shooting, moving, and acquiring targets.  Even if you can imagine scenarios where the certainty of having just X number of rounds left could make a difference, those are far outnumbered by scenarios where quick intuitive action is more important, and you're not going to train to your potential while actively thinking.

And if you don't know when your slide locks back by the feel of it when it happens, you're not shooting enough.

Also, as I sit here thinking about scenarios where it might matter, this simple thought occurred to me:

If you are in a true defensive scenario, in what possible situation would you need to fire a round at someone and NOT fire that round because of how many you have left?  And if you're going to take that shot regardless of how many rounds you have left, then how could it be important that you know EXACTLY how many you have left?  You'd be making the same shots anyway.  ;)
« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 11:13:50 AM by IDescribe »

Offline recoilguy

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2018, 09:31:16 AM »
I can certainly think of a scenario when counting your shots matters immensely.

I understand that well prepared and always in the best case scenario people like some alert and skilled gun owners would never be in that situation and will always have at least 4 mags and a loaded gun on them with the ability to reload at will. But in my case when I carry, I rarely have an extra mag on me, I think it is in my best interest to slow down a notch, be conscious of what I am doing and know when I am going to fire my last shot and become defenseless in a gun fight. I probably should be more prepared or maybe just a good enough shot that I only need one trigger press. I don't think that I can rely on either case to be a guarantee so in my case knowing is keeping my head in the game, being sure I can plan, and keeping myself from having to use a pocket knife in a gun fight. But that's just me.


RCG
........Its that you shoot!

Offline rhart

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2018, 10:47:18 AM »
Anyone competing counts it out before they start the stage.  That's a different scenario.  If you have to take unexpected extra shots on target, you make the adjustment on your planned mag change on the fly. 

But count rounds?  You're hurting your training if you count rounds.

Your mantra for training any skill should be "I practice these things so that I may forget them."  That may be Bruce Lee who said that or something similar.  Counting rounds is trying to remain conscious of what you're doing when you need to act almost unconsciously.

Conscious thought takes time. Conscious thought is language - - it's speaking inside your head -  and your body is capable of acting with far greater speed and skill when that conscious thought is minimized. Conscious thought is a waste of time when trying to employ a skill at speed.

If you're counting rounds in a defensive scenario, OR practicing for a defensive scenario, you're effectively slowing yourself down. You're hurting your practice, and distracting yourself from the task at hand: shooting, moving, and acquiring targets.  Even if you can imagine scenarios where the certainty of having just X number of rounds left could make a difference, those are far outnumbered by scenarios where quick intuitive action is more important, and you're not going to train to your potential while actively thinking.

And if you don't know when your slide locks back by the feel of it when it happens, you're not shooting enough.

Also, as I sit here thinking about scenarios where it might matter, this simple thought occurred to me:

If you are in a true defensive scenario, in what possible situation would you need to fire a round at someone and NOT fire that round because of how many you have left?  And if you're going to take that shot regardless of how many rounds you have left, then how could it be important that you know how many you have left?  You'd be making the same shots anyway.  ;)

Very, very well put. Extremely well put!
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline rhart

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2018, 11:04:10 AM »
I can certainly think of a scenario when counting your shots matters immensely.

I understand that well prepared and always in the best case scenario people like some alert and skilled gun owners would never be in that situation and will always have at least 4 mags and a loaded gun on them with the ability to reload at will. But in my case when I carry, I rarely have an extra mag on me, I think it is in my best interest to slow down a notch, be conscious of what I am doing and know when I am going to fire my last shot and become defenseless in a gun fight. I probably should be more prepared or maybe just a good enough shot that I only need one trigger press. I don't think that I can rely on either case to be a guarantee so in my case knowing is keeping my head in the game, being sure I can plan, and keeping myself from having to use a pocket knife in a gun fight. But that's just me.


RCG

More power to you if you can "slow down a notch and be conscious of what" you are doing during a massive adrenaline dump. Some famous gunfighters apparently were able to do this ala Wyatt Earp's supposed 'take your time - in a hurry' quip. Although it may have been that most old West gunfighters were under the influence of alcohol most of the time. I suspect that after one has been in a couple of gunfights the ability to manage the stress improves.
Myself, I have never been in a gunfight so I don't harbor any delusions that I would be able to control my fine motor skills to an extent that my accuracy is as good as during a competition or range session. Sometimes I carry an extra high capacity mag and sometimes I forget to retrieve it from the glove compartment - I almost never forget it though when in a not so nice environment.
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline Rickytick

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2018, 06:10:32 PM »
I  am a counter.

Online Hawker800

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2018, 01:33:01 AM »
Counting adds to your situational awareness.

Offline rhart

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Re: Do you count your shots ?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2018, 05:05:41 AM »
Counting adds to your situational awareness.

I would disagree respectfully. Counting is a mental distraction similar to talking on a cell phone, texting, etc. that detracts from one's overall situational awareness. It may improve one's awareness on a single and very narrow dimension (i.e. being aware of the number of rounds in your magazine), but it degrades one's comprehensive situational awareness required to survive a complex and multifaceted survival situation where milliseconds may be crucial.

As IDescribe so aptly stated, "Counting rounds is trying to remain conscious of what you're doing when you need to act almost unconsciously. Conscious thought takes time. Conscious thought is language - - it's speaking inside your head -  and your body is capable of acting with far greater speed and skill when that conscious thought is minimized. Conscious thought is a waste of time when trying to employ a skill at speed."
« Last Edit: June 07, 2018, 05:34:05 AM by rhart »
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

 

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