Author Topic: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?  (Read 3731 times)

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Offline JFen

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2018, 08:19:04 PM »
I have had feeding issues when just loading a first round of DLA in some handguns and feel uncomfortable

Two solutions:

1. Carry a gun that doesn't have problems with it, then use typical SD ammo, or
2. Chamber the first round before holstering your pistol, and it no longer matters because the first round is in the chamber.  ;)

This exactly. Every semi auto pistol I own will function with every defensive round out today and there is always a round in the chamber. Always. OP you don't mention what gun you have had issues with but that gun should be left at home till it is reliable with good defensive ammo.
Bingo!
FMJ is not a good defensive rd. Thru shots are common. Unless he can put a rd thru a heart or brain stem then other rds need to be sanctioned regularly


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Offline Old-Duckman

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2018, 01:30:41 PM »
Good posts, thanks for your input.

One asked which guns I might be talking about. Well the first time I experienced this was with a SIG 1911 using Hornady Critical Defense in .357 SIG. It had so much trouble that it did not feed at all and actually pushed the projectile deeper into the case. For one thing,  I couldn't believe that the bullet wasn't crimped into a cannelure in the projectile...apparently there is none.

The most resent one, and the one which prompted me to start the thread, is in the RAMI using SIG Elite Performance V-Crown. I thought that since these had a jacket shaped much like the FMJ that it would be reliable, and they may well be, but feeding the first round from the mag made me doubt that reliable feeding would be a given.

Lastly, thank you for the Gold Dot suggestion, I will surely try those. I do not reload so factory ammo is my only option.

Oh, one more thing. I came to the FMJ for defense idea via an article I was linked to from an American Arms forum. The writer was testing .380 auto in ballistic gel and determined that the hollow points he tested neither expanded nor penetrated well enough for defensive purposes. His tests of FMJ had sufficient penetration (in his opinion) to cause significant damage, thus he suggested using FMJ in your .380 for defense so I thought that perhaps it might be a good idea in general...

Offline 1SOW

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2018, 04:31:07 PM »
The .380 is a different issue  than the much stronger 9mm Luger.
A 9mm Luger can penetrate and open up reliably with quality ammo.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2018, 05:04:44 PM »
The .380 is a different issue  than the much stronger 9mm Luger.
A 9mm Luger can penetrate and open up reliably with quality ammo.


Even todays .380 is pretty fast. I  reload everything but .380 and the speer lawman .380 ammo I practice with is rated at 950 fps.
Not surprised the OP had an issue feeding anything in a 1911 pattern pistol,nothing like being outdated and the Rami has had some issues as well here and there.This is a gun problem not an ammo problem. Get the guns working properly or get different guns.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2018, 06:37:47 PM »
... but feeding the first round from the mag made me doubt that reliable feeding would be a given.

???

Okay, that sounds like it chambered.  It chambered, correct?  But something made you doubt the reliability?  What makes you doubt the reliability?

Offline Old-Duckman

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2018, 09:09:52 PM »
... but feeding the first round from the mag made me doubt that reliable feeding would be a given.

???

Okay, that sounds like it chambered.  It chambered, correct?  But something made you doubt the reliability?  What makes you doubt the reliability?

Correct it chambered the round but not on the first attempt.

Offline Old-Duckman

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2018, 09:27:24 PM »
Oh and a nod to Vinny too, I will get a box or two of the Selier & Bellot and give that a try. I do my onesey twoseys ammo buys at Target sports using their Prime Ammo/free shipping set-up but they are currently out of stock. The Prime Ammo membership is great if they have the ammo you want on stock but I am finding that often what I go there to purchase is "out of Stock". Don't know that I'll re-up my Prime Ammo membership...Just an Aside..

Offline 1SOW

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2018, 12:26:37 AM »
I think ONE Complete description of this first round feeding problem might help usvgive you some help.
1. the specific pistol
2.  Is the problem only when your "gently" easing the cartridge into the chamber?  Does that mean using the slide release or holding the slide and easing it foward at less speed than using l the slide release?
3.  Has it EVER failed to feed while shooting subsequent rounds and the pistol is clean and oiled?
4.  Does it fail to feed the first round with all your magazines when using the slide release lever or slingshotting the slide?

These,  all all answered in one post might help us help you.


Offline ScotchWhisky

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2018, 01:07:59 AM »
Military uses FMJ because they have to, not because they want to. Don't use FMJ for carry or self defense rounds for all the reasons already mentioned. Never a good idea. I'm a cheap bastard too, but your safety and your loved ones safety is not the place to be cheap. SGammo has 50 round boxes of Gold Dot or HST for $20.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2018, 08:30:56 AM »
One asked which guns I might be talking about. Well the first time I experienced this was with a SIG 1911 using Hornady Critical Defense in .357 SIG. It had so much trouble that it did not feed at all and actually pushed the projectile deeper into the case. For one thing,  I couldn't believe that the bullet wasn't crimped into a cannelure in the projectile...apparently there is none.
1911 feeding is a book unto itself. It could be the gun; it could be the mags. Since we have no way to replicate that as a group, let's simply not go there.


The most resent one, and the one which prompted me to start the thread, is in the RAMI using SIG Elite Performance V-Crown. I thought that since these had a jacket shaped much like the FMJ that it would be reliable, and they may well be, but feeding the first round from the mag made me doubt that reliable feeding would be a given.



The mouth of these bullets is opened wide to insure that the pedals expand properly. However these large openings also tend to clog easily with clothing AND have feed issues. Just looking at the ammo, I'm not surprised you're having problems.

Since ammo can't be returned, that mandates you should take your barrel with you and drop a round in before purchasing. If the rounds won't rotate in the chamber, then it certainly won't chamber properly in the gun. Sure this test only looks at one aspect, but physically fitting the chamber is a "biggie".

Here, SIG is trying to gain access to law enforcement ammo sales (which in the USA alone must total into the billions), but there is no way for them to complete with the likes of Remington, Winchester, Federal, Speer, Hornady and a host of other better established U.S. brands with much deeper pockets for the tons of research this market requires. (And here, you should be saying to yourself, "If the French can't find a good bullet in all of Europe, what does that tell me ?")


Oh, one more thing. I came to the FMJ for defense idea via an article I was linked to from an American Arms forum. The writer was testing .380 auto in ballistic gel and determined that the hollow points he tested neither expanded nor penetrated well enough for defensive purposes. His tests of FMJ had sufficient penetration (in his opinion) to cause significant damage, thus he suggested using FMJ in your .380 for defense so I thought that perhaps it might be a good idea in general...
380 Auto has NOTHING in common with 9x19 Luger, except the 0.355" bullet diameter. 380 will never have the power, penetration, or ballistics of 9mm simply becasue the 380 does not fire from a "locked" chamber. All 380 pistols (that I know of) utilize a "blow back" design, which wastes a huge amount of energy.


So the bottom lines are these:
? You've been trying to compare apples to oranges. That is to say, 1911's to RAMIs, and 380Auto to 9x19 Luger. It simply doesn't work that way. The comparisons aren't valid in any way, shape or form, and that's what's skewing your results.

? You need to take your barrel with you when you shop for ammo. Do the spin test. If the rounds won't spin in the chamber, then walk away.

? You say you're trying to save money, but by pinching pennies on off brand, third tier ammo, you're loosing dollars instead. Stick with the brands that police officers actually carry, not the brands with flashy internet reviews. Most of those reviewers can be bought off with a couple of cases of free ammo.


Hope this helps.  ;)
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Offline Vinny

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2018, 09:07:25 AM »
Quote from Wobbly:
"380 will never have the power, penetration, or ballistics of 9mm simply because the 380 does not fire from a "locked" chamber. All 380 pistols (that I know of) utilize a "blow back" design, which wastes a huge amount of energy."

Wobbly, this is a very interesting comment.
I understand the muzzle velocity can vary greatly between guns using identical ammo. Length of barrel and barrel ID and twist cut vs. bullet OD of course are factors.

So, it makes me curious which 9mm CZ's do NOT operate on a 'blow back' design. CZ 75's? P-07/09??
What about CZ-83 in .380acp which of course is '9mm short'? 
Just trying to learn something here.  Thanks for your post. -Vinny

P.S. - Thanks Wobbly. After all this time I didn't realize there was a difference between 'Blowback' and 'Locked Breach'. Just thought they all operated on blowback principle.  Found a good article that explains the difference:
https://americanhandgunner.com/whats-a-locked-breech/

P.P.S.- Apparently, the SIG P238 is one of the very few .380ACP handguns that utilize a 'locked breach' vs. blowback.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 12:54:05 PM by Vinny »
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Offline nicky

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2018, 12:51:32 PM »
Vinny

 Thanks for that link.

Offline Wobbly

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2018, 03:38:47 PM »
So, it makes me curious which 9mm CZ's do NOT operate on a 'blow back' design. CZ 75's? P-07/09?? What about CZ-83 in .380acp which of course is '9mm short'?  Just trying to learn something here.  Thanks for your post. -Vinny
Vinny -
All the CZs in 9x19 Luger use a locked breech. They have to due to the chamber pressure created by the 9x19 round. I don't think you'll ever see a blow back 9x19 Luger pistol. Maybe a sub-machine gun, but not a pistol.

Can't tell you about the CZ83, but I suspect from the list of cartridges that it's blow-back operated. Blow back guns are cheap and simple to make, becasue the mechanism is greatly simplified. But our discussion here is about the cartridge, not the guns.

After all this time I didn't realize there was a difference between 'Blowback' and 'Locked Breech'. Just thought they all operated on blowback principle.  Found a good article that explains the difference: https://americanhandgunner.com/whats-a-locked-breech/
The locking mechanism, as utilized by John Browning and almost everyone that followed, is so slick that most people don't see it or even know it's there. So you're not alone.

P.P.S.- Apparently, the SIG P238 is one of the very few .380ACP handguns that utilize a 'locked breech' vs. blowback.
And at $599 per (Cabella's current price), the only place you're likely to see one of these is in some internet review !  ;D I mean seriously, why would you spend that much money on a 380 Auto pistol when seriously GREAT 9x19 Luger pistols are available for $150 less ?

 ;)
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Offline Vinny

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2018, 06:16:36 PM »
Thanks gents for sharing your wisdom. Learned a few new things today!  ;)

Quite a few ladies at the ranges I shoot at love their SIG P238's
It seems from talking with them to be more about the ability to reach trigger and controls comfortably than anything else. And perhaps the locked breach does somehow dissipate recoil a bit. I dunno?

Anyhow, I got rid of the last of 380ACP a long time ago. Cost per round is much less for 9mm, so I consolidated ammo and guns so I could buy more in bulk. Now I can afford to buy those 9mm S&B JHP's and practice with them more often.  ;D  -Vinny
« Last Edit: July 16, 2018, 06:57:44 PM by Vinny »
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Offline Wobbly

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Re: Anyone use FMJ in your carry piece ?
« Reply #29 on: July 17, 2018, 06:15:19 PM »
This thread is NOT about 380 pistols.



If you want to continue to talk about topics unrelated to the heading, then GO HERE. Let's please get back on track. This is clearly unfair to the OP.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 17, 2018, 06:58:10 PM by Wobbly »
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