Author Topic: History as I recall.  (Read 2118 times)

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skin

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History as I recall.
« on: June 21, 2018, 03:55:55 AM »
 Before 1980, the wheel gun was considered the primer self defense gun. The 1911 in 45 auto was the only semi that was considered a viable combat / self defense pistol. Just about every police officer in the state of Texas carried a revolver, 41 mag for some of the dept. Of public safety,  38 special or 357 mag for most others. Very few carried a 1911, as semi auto pistols were considered unreliable at the time.  9mm luger was more of a novelty, a ww2  trophy. There was only one pistol that had more capacity than a 1911, the browning high power with its 13 rounds. Col. Jeff Cooper, a notable writer and master of the self defense handgun, liked the browning high power  but didn't like the 9mm it came in. He liked the 1911 but again didn't like its flaws, it was big and hard to master the recoil of the 45. In the late 70's he came across a pistol that was made in a soviet satellite state, chekoslovika , called the CZ 75. It had the slide rail of the Sig, the lockup of a browning and a grip angle more conducive for accuracy with a 15 round capacity.  Col Cooper pronounced it the best fighting pistol in the world.  The only drawback was the anemic 9mm round. I was able to pick up one in 1980 in Europe. They couldn't be imported into the US because they came from a communist country. It wasn't until the late 80's or early 90's that ammo makers started to load good self defense ammo. Col Cooper was the inspiration for the 10mm and the cz75 knockoff called the bren 10. Now, every gun maker offers a semi pistol in 9mm and or a short 10mm  (40s&w). Although I still like a wheel gun, I love my CZ's.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #1 on: June 21, 2018, 06:04:22 AM »
In 1981 the department issue handgun was an old Colt Trooper in .357 magnum.  The old Colt Troopers were a Python frame with a skinny 4" barrel and not as smooth (not worked over at the Colt factory) as the Pythons.  We were allowed to carry our own handgun if we got the Chiefs approval.  I carried the Trooper for a few months till I found a used Colt Combat Commander in .45 acp and started carrying that.

One of the officers in the department carried a S&W M59 9MM, one carried a S&W M65 (think it was a 65 - stainless steel .38 special, fixed sights) and the rest carried the old Troopers.

I bought the first S&W 586 I ran across (6" barrel) but I never attempted to carry it for work.  The Chief was so impressed by it he bought a S&W 686 with a 6" barrel and he did carry it awhile.  The barrel was too long and he eventually bought a Colt Gold Cup in .45 acp to carry.

I began to work on my Combat Commander (action work, sights, ambidextrous safeties, beavertail grip safety, etc.) and stopped carrying it till I was sure my work wasn't affecting reliability or safety.  I bought a S&W M29 and began to carry it.

Even though the Chief approved the M29 I don't think he was comfortable about it.  The officer with the S&W M59 went out and bought a nickel plated 6" barreled M29 and started carrying it using my M29 (4" blued) as justification for his carry of a similar handgun.  He couldn't hit a door with it but the Chief wouldn't tell him (or me) we had to stop carrying our .44 magnums.  I carried the Remington 240 grain LSWC (medium load was labeled on the box) and the other guy carried the Remington 240 grain hollow points.

The Chief decided he had to change things up so he got approval to buy new handguns for the department.  Brand new S&W 4" barreled 686's.  Have of them had to go back to an authorized S&W repair station immediately (after the first trip to the range) for the issue where 125 grain hollow point primers would flow back into the enlarged hole in the firing pin nose bushing.  Took a couple/three weeks till we got them back.  I carried that 686 till I left in Feb. 1985.

We "sneered" at the 9MM.  I mean, remember what was going on back then?  The Miami/Dade County shoot out where one guy killed/maimed several FBI agents after being shot twice in the chest with 9MM hollow points.  The Beretta wounding/maiming shooters when the rear half of the slide would break off and fly back to break cheek bones, put out eyes, etc.

The CZ75 wasn't known to us in those days.  The only foreign 9MM I'd seen were High Powers and one lone Radom.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #2 on: June 21, 2018, 06:57:50 AM »
We "sneered" at the 9MM.  I mean, remember what was going on back then?  The Miami/Dade County shoot out where one guy killed/maimed several FBI agents after being shot twice in the chest with 9MM hollow points.  The Beretta wounding/maiming shooters when the rear half of the slide would break off and fly back to break cheek bones, put out eyes, etc.

The CZ75 wasn't known to us in those days.  The only foreign 9MM I'd seen were High Powers and one lone Radom.

Actually one suspect was shot 6 times and the other 12. .357 magnum is what ultimately stopped that fight. As far as the Beretta issue they got that fixed pretty quickly. Today it's one of the most reliable designs still in production. I like mine as much as my CZ's.

Offline bang bang

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #3 on: June 21, 2018, 03:12:23 PM »
when i got into guns, the wheel gun was still carried by LEOs.

My first gun was a 22LR rifle.  My 2nd gun was a S&W 629. 

45 ACP is a wimp compared to my 44.  i was just starting college when i got that 629.  I have 1911s now in both flavors and they are still fun to shoot, but if you havent shot one and then expect it to "kick like a mule" you havent been kicked - yet.

I had read about the CZ back then and a good friend had a BHP and i was able to shoot and try that.  I loved it, but it felt like a 2x2 in my hands.   And i was thinking why cant someone come up with a DA/SA in 9.  it took a few years, but i got my 1st CZ and its still in my collection and 1 of many now.


skin

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2018, 06:12:38 PM »
 Around 1983, I was stationed in South Carolina. Brought my cz75 with me. Trying to get ammo for a 9mm was difficult. Had to drive 35 miles to find a box of Speer 125gr soft points, at $35 a box. That is what got me into reloading. I started shooting bullseye matches with a gold cup national match, a colt woodsman and the cz75. Everyone was shooting tricked out colts or s&w 38 specials. They thought I was crazy shooting a 9mm until after a couple of matches. The plain stock cz75 loaded with 88gr nice going almost 1400 fps was as accurate as those tricked out 38 specials. No one could find a cz75 to copy me. I had loads of fun out shooting those guys. The gun itself was painted and had some paint missing from usage. Kind of a sleeper.

Offline IDescribe

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2018, 06:21:08 PM »
As far as the Beretta issue they got that fixed pretty quickly. Today it's one of the most reliable designs still in production.

Right.  It was faulty metallurgy.  They fixed it.  And while I know it's an excellent pistol, I don't care for them.  I kind of despise the triggers -- at least the stock triggers.  I've never fired one where the trigger had been worked over.

Offline SI VIS PACEM PARRABELLUM

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2018, 07:04:08 PM »
As far as the Beretta issue they got that fixed pretty quickly. Today it's one of the most reliable designs still in production.

Right.  It was faulty metallurgy.  They fixed it.  And while I know it's an excellent pistol, I don't care for them.  I kind of despise the triggers -- at least the stock triggers.  I've never fired one where the trigger had been worked over.

The Beretta 92 trigger can be as good as anything out there. I added a factory skeletonized hammer and lighter hammer spring to mine and now it's quite the sweet shooter.Easily as good as my CZ's with CGW upgrades.

Offline jameslovesjammie

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2018, 08:38:15 PM »
I kind of despise the triggers -- at least the stock triggers.  I've never fired one where the trigger had been worked over.

I never really cared for them either...until I shot one what was full of Wilson Combat parts.  Wow.  Definitely worth the price of admission.

Offline rhart

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2018, 09:49:08 PM »
We "sneered" at the 9MM.  I mean, remember what was going on back then?  The Miami/Dade County shoot out where one guy killed/maimed several FBI agents after being shot twice in the chest with 9MM hollow points.  The Beretta wounding/maiming shooters when the rear half of the slide would break off and fly back to break cheek bones, put out eyes, etc.

The CZ75 wasn't known to us in those days.  The only foreign 9MM I'd seen were High Powers and one lone Radom.

Actually one suspect was shot 6 times and the other 12. .357 magnum is what ultimately stopped that fight. As far as the Beretta issue they got that fixed pretty quickly. Today it's one of the most reliable designs still in production. I like mine as much as my CZ's.

If I'm not mistaken, the agents who had .357 magnums during this gunfight were shooting .38 +P rounds - not .357 magnum rounds. Those with .38 specials were also shooting .38+P rounds. So technically, the .38+P ultimately stopped the fight.
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline rhart

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2018, 10:19:10 PM »
Before 1980, the wheel gun was considered the primer self defense gun. The 1911 in 45 auto was the only semi that was considered a viable combat / self defense pistol. Just about every police officer in the state of Texas carried a revolver, 41 mag for some of the dept. Of public safety,  38 special or 357 mag for most others. Very few carried a 1911, as semi auto pistols were considered unreliable at the time.  9mm luger was more of a novelty, a ww2  trophy. There was only one pistol that had more capacity than a 1911, the browning high power with its 13 rounds. Col. Jeff Cooper, a notable writer and master of the self defense handgun, liked the browning high power  but didn't like the 9mm it came in. He liked the 1911 but again didn't like its flaws, it was big and hard to master the recoil of the 45. In the late 70's he came across a pistol that was made in a soviet satellite state, chekoslovika , called the CZ 75. It had the slide rail of the Sig, the lockup of a browning and a grip angle more conducive for accuracy with a 15 round capacity.  Col Cooper pronounced it the best fighting pistol in the world.  The only drawback was the anemic 9mm round. I was able to pick up one in 1980 in Europe. They couldn't be imported into the US because they came from a communist country. It wasn't until the late 80's or early 90's that ammo makers started to load good self defense ammo. Col Cooper was the inspiration for the 10mm and the cz75 knockoff called the bren 10. Now, every gun maker offers a semi pistol in 9mm and or a short 10mm  (40s&w). Although I still like a wheel gun, I love my CZ's.

My recollection differs somewhat as far as the 9mm pistols are concerned. In the late sixties, just about every gangster type I knew either had or wanted a Browning Hi Power (HP) because of the 13-round capacity. All of the police or police wannabes had or wanted a .357 Magnum - because it could "shoot right through an engine block." As soon as I could afford one, I got a S&W Model 59 (early seventies) because it held one more round than a HP. Everyone was talking about 9mm Supervel ammo being so powerful that it made 9mm acceptable for self defense to many. So to me and most people I knew, the 9mm was not considered a novelty. However, in my experience most law enforcement carried wheel guns up to the late eighties maybe.
Musashi:
- In all forms of strategy, it is necessary to maintain the combat stance in everyday life and to make your everyday stance your combat stance. (situational awareness).
- You can only fight the way you practice.
- If you do not control the enemy, the enemy will control you.

Offline Tyerone

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2018, 08:51:37 PM »
And don't forget during that just before and during that same era, surplus war 1911s were a dime a dozen, sloppy rattle traps with crappy accuracy.  To boot, they smashed the brass upon ejection.  Thats where my uncle Frank came in, made a living after retirement accuriszng old surplus 1911s and loose fitting high powers by way of rod-welding and milling a tight fitting system along with trigger jobs, bushing work, whatever.  Let the gun games begin!  Bowling pin shooting anybody?  I was just a tyke when I first toured his basement shop, but it all left quite an impression! Who'd a thunk that "customized" 1911s would be produced by a hundred manufacturers as catalog items.  Incredible!

We certainly are a spoiled bunch of consumers today!

Thanks for the trip down memory lane!

Offline dwa

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #11 on: July 06, 2018, 03:02:47 PM »
rhart above states "However, in my experience most law enforcement carried wheel guns up to the late eighties maybe."  My S&W 686 was originally used by a San Bernardino Police Officer from 1980 until 1990.

Offline M1A4ME

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Re: History as I recall.
« Reply #12 on: July 06, 2018, 04:00:43 PM »
Our armory was full (somewhere between 22 and 25) of the old 1911A1's.  Not a one was a Colt.  Singers, Ithacas, Remington Rands, Union Switch & Signal, etc.

When you'd grab one in your hand and shake it you could hear it rattle like a tin can with some nuts/bolts in it.

When I tried out for the battalion combat pistol team in 1978 I was sent to the armory (in the basement of the barracks) to sign out a 1911a1 and take it with me to the range for the try outs.  That rattle trap old 1911A1 would knock down the popups out to 50 meters.  First time I ever shot a 1911A1.  I made the team as a shooter (four shooters, two alternates and a coach made up the team).  The were kind enough to let me practice 4 or 5 times or so (practice was 1 box of 50 rounds and the pistol with a short trip down to Ft. Belvoir, VA to shoot up the 50 rounds, no coach, just me or me and my buddy (who was an alternate).  I ended up in the middle of the scores at Ft. Meade when we went to the Eastern Regional Forscom match that year.  Cemented my love/feelings for the 1911 and later than year I ran across a nice Colt 1911 (made in 1917) at Clark Brothers in Warrenton and picked it up for $195.  Still have it.
I just keep wasting time and money on other brands trying to find/make one shoot like my P07 and P09.  What is wrong with me?